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	<title>Comments on: Vedic Origins : Children of Danu</title>
	<link>http://dedanaan.com</link>
	<description>Myth is what we call other people's religion.</description>
	<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jul 2008 16:46:42 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: brian brady</title>
		<link>http://dedanaan.com/vedic-origins-children-of-danu/#comment-68</link>
		<author>brian brady</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Aug 2005 21:12:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dedanaan.com/vedic-origins-children-of-danu/#comment-68</guid>
					<description>very interesting site...any outside evidence to support textual claims? paticularly interested in the celtic claims of lineage to spain (milesius) and egypt (nectonibus)...the known pharohs of that name are one thousand years off of the timeline 1700 B.C.? anyone have a comment on this relatively major inconsistency?

sincerely

brian a brady
kamloops, b.c., canada</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>very interesting site&#8230;any outside evidence to support textual claims? paticularly interested in the celtic claims of lineage to spain (milesius) and egypt (nectonibus)&#8230;the known pharohs of that name are one thousand years off of the timeline 1700 B.C.? anyone have a comment on this relatively major inconsistency?</p>
<p>sincerely</p>
<p>brian a brady<br />
kamloops, b.c., canada</p>
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		<title>By: bev davis</title>
		<link>http://dedanaan.com/vedic-origins-children-of-danu/#comment-145</link>
		<author>bev davis</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Oct 2005 20:43:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dedanaan.com/vedic-origins-children-of-danu/#comment-145</guid>
					<description>The Celts and the Vedics are certainly related as both are descended from the protoIndoeuropeans, but the Celts were already in Spain before the Aryans were in India.  It is also interesting to note that the Mittani were the farthest most west of the Aryan speaking group, and that Nefertiti might have been one of them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Celts and the Vedics are certainly related as both are descended from the protoIndoeuropeans, but the Celts were already in Spain before the Aryans were in India.  It is also interesting to note that the Mittani were the farthest most west of the Aryan speaking group, and that Nefertiti might have been one of them.</p>
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		<title>By: tom donnelly mitchell</title>
		<link>http://dedanaan.com/vedic-origins-children-of-danu/#comment-333</link>
		<author>tom donnelly mitchell</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Mar 2006 18:51:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dedanaan.com/vedic-origins-children-of-danu/#comment-333</guid>
					<description>certainly the danavas ancestors  were present here in the pacific northwest, before the flood,,(missoula )see my photo#010.the  crone in cartoon like profile ,a larger  face,and....this one should be turned...i see proto sandskrit and a lot more...stand back and look...thanks,tom</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>certainly the danavas ancestors  were present here in the pacific northwest, before the flood,,(missoula )see my photo#010.the  crone in cartoon like profile ,a larger  face,and&#8230;.this one should be turned&#8230;i see proto sandskrit and a lot more&#8230;stand back and look&#8230;thanks,tom</p>
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		<title>By: WaltDe</title>
		<link>http://dedanaan.com/vedic-origins-children-of-danu/#comment-1196</link>
		<author>WaltDe</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Sep 2006 17:15:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dedanaan.com/vedic-origins-children-of-danu/#comment-1196</guid>
					<description>Very good reading. Peace until next time.
WaltDe</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very good reading. Peace until next time.<br />
WaltDe</p>
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		<title>By: Sharad Sharma</title>
		<link>http://dedanaan.com/vedic-origins-children-of-danu/#comment-2315</link>
		<author>Sharad Sharma</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Oct 2006 07:14:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dedanaan.com/vedic-origins-children-of-danu/#comment-2315</guid>
					<description>My Dear Friend ,
I am an Indian and consider myself of Aryan origin. I am in partial agreement with u.Indra is son of Aditi &#38; not Danu as u have pointed out. The major differrences between them was of topreserve traditions. Indra wanted to preserve the word of Bramha(vedas) unlike Danvas who wanted otherwise.You have rightly pointed out that Europeans were considered as Danvas . Even now , devote Hindus point them as Asuras (don't feel hurt) Europeans also term other as uncivilised.There has been fight among devs&#38;danvas. My point is clear when the presence of vedas is cited among Indians (tyhat Indra wanted to preserve traditions). Also Zeus is Knowns as Dhaus( as u have called him Tvstha) the father os Indra.. The Europeans were later called as Yavanas in india . I have always felt that there is some kind of distinction between us &#38;europeans . Your theory has finally endrosed it.
Kashchap had 13 wives of which many different childrens were produced. Also , manu was not only the sole producer of atleast Indians are concerned . Unlike Europeans , whose myths considers them as children of Zeus &#38;some ofhis sisters,we (read Indians) are childrens of 11 sages excluding Manu . some of them are Angira, Vashisstha,Pulatsya,Kratu,Marichi,Bhrigu(the most graceful of them) There wives has been provided by Brahma(The child of supreme soul ) Hindus consider as there creater.
 I think I have finally given many points . 
I am sorry for if I would have hurt oyur feelings</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My Dear Friend ,<br />
I am an Indian and consider myself of Aryan origin. I am in partial agreement with u.Indra is son of Aditi &amp; not Danu as u have pointed out. The major differrences between them was of topreserve traditions. Indra wanted to preserve the word of Bramha(vedas) unlike Danvas who wanted otherwise.You have rightly pointed out that Europeans were considered as Danvas . Even now , devote Hindus point them as Asuras (don&#8217;t feel hurt) Europeans also term other as uncivilised.There has been fight among devs&amp;danvas. My point is clear when the presence of vedas is cited among Indians (tyhat Indra wanted to preserve traditions). Also Zeus is Knowns as Dhaus( as u have called him Tvstha) the father os Indra.. The Europeans were later called as Yavanas in india . I have always felt that there is some kind of distinction between us &amp;europeans . Your theory has finally endrosed it.<br />
Kashchap had 13 wives of which many different childrens were produced. Also , manu was not only the sole producer of atleast Indians are concerned . Unlike Europeans , whose myths considers them as children of Zeus &amp;some ofhis sisters,we (read Indians) are childrens of 11 sages excluding Manu . some of them are Angira, Vashisstha,Pulatsya,Kratu,Marichi,Bhrigu(the most graceful of them) There wives has been provided by Brahma(The child of supreme soul ) Hindus consider as there creater.<br />
 I think I have finally given many points .<br />
I am sorry for if I would have hurt oyur feelings</p>
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		<title>By: Aine MacDermot</title>
		<link>http://dedanaan.com/vedic-origins-children-of-danu/#comment-2316</link>
		<author>Aine MacDermot</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Oct 2006 07:21:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dedanaan.com/vedic-origins-children-of-danu/#comment-2316</guid>
					<description>You aren't hurting my feelings, I'm not the original author of this piece, but I did get the permission of the author to post his article here.

It was written by Dr. David Frawley (Pandit Vamadeva Shastri), American Institute of Vedic Studies 
PO Box 8357, Santa Fe NM 87504-8357 
Ph: 505-983-9385, Fax: 505-982-5807 
&lt;a title="Veda Net" href="http://www.vedanet.com/" rel="nofollow"&gt;http://www.vedanet.com/&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You aren&#8217;t hurting my feelings, I&#8217;m not the original author of this piece, but I did get the permission of the author to post his article here.</p>
<p>It was written by Dr. David Frawley (Pandit Vamadeva Shastri), American Institute of Vedic Studies<br />
PO Box 8357, Santa Fe NM 87504-8357<br />
Ph: 505-983-9385, Fax: 505-982-5807<br />
<a title="Veda Net" href="http://www.vedanet.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.vedanet.com/</a></p>
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		<title>By: ayudh.com &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Vedic Origins : Children of Danu</title>
		<link>http://dedanaan.com/vedic-origins-children-of-danu/#comment-2621</link>
		<author>ayudh.com &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Vedic Origins : Children of Danu</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Oct 2006 23:57:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dedanaan.com/vedic-origins-children-of-danu/#comment-2621</guid>
					<description>[...] Dr. David Frawley (Pandit Vamadeva Shastri), American Institute of Vedic Studies PO Box 8357, Santa Fe NM 87504-8357 Ph: 505-983-9385, Fax: 505-982-5807 http://www.vedanet.com/ Source [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Dr. David Frawley (Pandit Vamadeva Shastri), American Institute of Vedic Studies PO Box 8357, Santa Fe NM 87504-8357 Ph: 505-983-9385, Fax: 505-982-5807 <a href="http://www.vedanet.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.vedanet.com/</a> Source [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: P. K. Garg</title>
		<link>http://dedanaan.com/vedic-origins-children-of-danu/#comment-3676</link>
		<author>P. K. Garg</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Dec 2006 15:37:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dedanaan.com/vedic-origins-children-of-danu/#comment-3676</guid>
					<description>Interesting article. To me also Persia seems a place where much of proto-Aryan history unfolded. However, how this reconstruction based on literure only can be proved/disproved scientifically is very difficult to say. Faith, particularly of Indians and India-lovers seems to fog truely inquisitive inquiry into such issues.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting article. To me also Persia seems a place where much of proto-Aryan history unfolded. However, how this reconstruction based on literure only can be proved/disproved scientifically is very difficult to say. Faith, particularly of Indians and India-lovers seems to fog truely inquisitive inquiry into such issues.</p>
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		<title>By: Neville Ramdeholl</title>
		<link>http://dedanaan.com/vedic-origins-children-of-danu/#comment-3801</link>
		<author>Neville Ramdeholl</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Dec 2006 21:34:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dedanaan.com/vedic-origins-children-of-danu/#comment-3801</guid>
					<description>Vamadeva, Namaste.  The theory that the Indus is Aryan , I think is untrue and ridiculous. The main reason I am saying this is that for the following reason:  If the Indus possessed horses as so many writers, archaeologists and historians maintain, then why there is no trace of horse trade between the Indus and the other civilizations such as Sumer and Mesopotamian and other countries?  There are no documents, or attestation of horse trade between the periods of 3500-2700 BC.  There are various written sources of Indian and non-Indian which states that the cities of the Indus has sites of supposedly horse remains and bones. How could the Indus alone possess horses at a time when the other civilizations did not?  There has also been detailed written sources of books and Internet articles of trade of other products and natural resources  from the Indus to other countries as Sumer, Mesopotamia, Dilmun, Magan and other Arabic countries but these sources fail completely to show any evidence of horse trade among them. Thus, the Indus civilization is not of Aryan origin.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Vamadeva, Namaste.  The theory that the Indus is Aryan , I think is untrue and ridiculous. The main reason I am saying this is that for the following reason:  If the Indus possessed horses as so many writers, archaeologists and historians maintain, then why there is no trace of horse trade between the Indus and the other civilizations such as Sumer and Mesopotamian and other countries?  There are no documents, or attestation of horse trade between the periods of 3500-2700 BC.  There are various written sources of Indian and non-Indian which states that the cities of the Indus has sites of supposedly horse remains and bones. How could the Indus alone possess horses at a time when the other civilizations did not?  There has also been detailed written sources of books and Internet articles of trade of other products and natural resources  from the Indus to other countries as Sumer, Mesopotamia, Dilmun, Magan and other Arabic countries but these sources fail completely to show any evidence of horse trade among them. Thus, the Indus civilization is not of Aryan origin.</p>
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		<title>By: Neville Ramdeholl</title>
		<link>http://dedanaan.com/vedic-origins-children-of-danu/#comment-21123</link>
		<author>Neville Ramdeholl</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jan 2007 03:02:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dedanaan.com/vedic-origins-children-of-danu/#comment-21123</guid>
					<description>Will anyone reply to me and prove that the Indus is of Aryan? Can anyone provide the evidence that the Indus is or was Aryan in origin? Readers, historians, archaeologists, writers of the Internet etc, Dinesh Agarwal and others?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Will anyone reply to me and prove that the Indus is of Aryan? Can anyone provide the evidence that the Indus is or was Aryan in origin? Readers, historians, archaeologists, writers of the Internet etc, Dinesh Agarwal and others?</p>
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		<title>By: Aine MacDermot</title>
		<link>http://dedanaan.com/vedic-origins-children-of-danu/#comment-21124</link>
		<author>Aine MacDermot</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jan 2007 03:08:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dedanaan.com/vedic-origins-children-of-danu/#comment-21124</guid>
					<description>From Wikipedia: 

&lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan" rel="nofollow"&gt;Etymology&lt;/a&gt;

Indo-Iranian ar-ya- descends from Proto-Indo-European (PIE) *ar-yo-, a yo-adjective to a root *ar "to assemble skillfully", present in Greek harma "chariot", Greek aristos, (as in "aristocracy"), Latin ars "art", etc. Proto-Indo-Iranian *ar-ta- was a related concept of "properly joined" expressing a religious concept of cosmic order.

The adjective *aryo- was suggested as ascending to Proto-Indo-European times as the self-designation of the speakers of the Proto-Indo-European language itself. It was suggested that other words such as Éire, the Irish name of Ireland, and Ehre (German for "honour") were related to it, but these are now widely regarded as untenable, and while *ar-yo- is certainly a well-formed PIE adjective, there is no evidence that it was used as an ethnic self-designation outside the Indo-Iranian branch. In the 1850s Max Müller theorized that the word originated as a denotation of farming populations, since he thought it likely that it was related to the root *arh3, meaning "to plough". Other 19th century writers, such as Charles Morris, repeated this idea, linking the expansion of PIE speakers to the spread of agriculturalists. Most linguists now consider *arh3 to be unrelated.

The Old Persian form of *Aryāna- appears as Æryānam Väejāh "Aryan Expanse" in Avestan,[1] in Middle Persian as Ērān, and in Modern Persian as Īrān.[2] Similarly, Northern India was referred to by the tatpurusha Aryavarta "Arya-abode" in ancient times.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From Wikipedia: </p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan" rel="nofollow">Etymology</a></p>
<p>Indo-Iranian ar-ya- descends from Proto-Indo-European (PIE) *ar-yo-, a yo-adjective to a root *ar &#8220;to assemble skillfully&#8221;, present in Greek harma &#8220;chariot&#8221;, Greek aristos, (as in &#8220;aristocracy&#8221;), Latin ars &#8220;art&#8221;, etc. Proto-Indo-Iranian *ar-ta- was a related concept of &#8220;properly joined&#8221; expressing a religious concept of cosmic order.</p>
<p>The adjective *aryo- was suggested as ascending to Proto-Indo-European times as the self-designation of the speakers of the Proto-Indo-European language itself. It was suggested that other words such as Éire, the Irish name of Ireland, and Ehre (German for &#8220;honour&#8221;) were related to it, but these are now widely regarded as untenable, and while *ar-yo- is certainly a well-formed PIE adjective, there is no evidence that it was used as an ethnic self-designation outside the Indo-Iranian branch. In the 1850s Max Müller theorized that the word originated as a denotation of farming populations, since he thought it likely that it was related to the root *arh3, meaning &#8220;to plough&#8221;. Other 19th century writers, such as Charles Morris, repeated this idea, linking the expansion of PIE speakers to the spread of agriculturalists. Most linguists now consider *arh3 to be unrelated.</p>
<p>The Old Persian form of *Aryāna- appears as Æryānam Väejāh &#8220;Aryan Expanse&#8221; in Avestan,[1] in Middle Persian as Ērān, and in Modern Persian as Īrān.[2] Similarly, Northern India was referred to by the tatpurusha Aryavarta &#8220;Arya-abode&#8221; in ancient times.</p>
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		<title>By: Neville Ramdeholl</title>
		<link>http://dedanaan.com/vedic-origins-children-of-danu/#comment-22632</link>
		<author>Neville Ramdeholl</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Jan 2007 06:10:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dedanaan.com/vedic-origins-children-of-danu/#comment-22632</guid>
					<description>:    To: Mr.Shrikant Talageri and others.        :                
The idea that the Aryans are an indigenous lot is absurd as the theory that the Indus is Aryan.  It is all plain for everyone to see despite the hundreds of books , articles and internet reports, that the Aryans are an intrusive people into India. 
For sometime now  I have been reading several articles of the case for  and against  AIT/AMT versus  OIT.  Although the Indian historians and certain archaeologists have more or less proven that there was no invasion per se of India, by Indo-Aryans , the fact still remain that India was and still is occupied by the descendants of the Vedic Aryans whose culture and history make up what is India today and including those from the Indus civilization. A detailed reading and study of the various opinions by those historians and archaeologists on this website, especially from India still maintain and doubt that the horse and chariot came from outside the country and  who insist that horses and chariots are indigenous to the land.     I have perceived that there are three major points which mostly the Indian historians are stubbornly refusing to concede and that is :
            
           (A)    They continue to hang on to the dead theory that the Indus 
                    civilization is Aryan and indigenous.
 
           (B)     Despite the mountain of official documented and textual 
                     evidence from various sources eg: Andronovan proven Indo-
                    Iranian sites,  evidence from the Vedas itself,  lack of evidence of 
                    horses and chariots in ancient India before the advent of the 
                    Aryans etc, Indian officials and historians still attempt to castigate 
                    the authors and doubt the  veracity of the documented and 
                    archaeological evidence. 
          
          (C)     The clear absence of archaeological and attestation of horse trade 
                   between the Indus Civilization and its neighbors in the time period
                   of supposed finds of horse remains.
 
We begin from the beginning by placing the Aryans outside of India rather than being an indigenous people living thousands of years in India as so many Indian scholars believe. It is a fact that the Avesta places a home for the Aryans who sojourned outside India, which they called Airyana Vaejah or Aryan Homeland.  The Aryans came through the Northwest of what is now today the state of Pakistan. That  old natural pass called the Khyber. This same pass was used by different conquerors to conquer India in later times. This is a northwest route , not an east or west or south route and you can see from the geographical map where the Aryans forded and settled for a time calling it the Saptasindhu of which Five Rivers of the area were Shutudri called the Sutlej, the Vipasha or Vipash now called the Beas, the Parushini now called the Ravi, the Vitasta now called the Jhelum. Two main rivers were added called the Indus or Sindhu and the Sarasvati making it the Seven Rivers. The following points shows why the Aryans are intruders to India.
 
a)     Despite, the writings and articles of Indian historians, archaeologists  and Internet writers, these are the only rivers other than the Ganga and Yamuna mentioned in the Vedas.  If the Aryans were indigenous people, why didn't they mention the Kaveri, the Krishna, the Bhima,  the Godavari, the Narmada, the Chambal and the others?
 
b)     Why didn't they mention all the other civilizations such as the Indus, and those of Southern India etc?
 
c)     Some may have noticed that the Vedas descriptions of their life and society only is confined to the northwest of India.  There is no mention of areas of Bengal,  Tamil Nadu or Maharastra and other areas.   
 
d)     Do the historical departments of India and other such cultural organizations have the names of the original rivers , because these are mostly Rigvedic names.  If the Harappans occupied  the Indus civilizations for so long, surely they must have names for these rivers. 
 
This is the only way the Aryans could have come into India and that is through the Khyber Pass between the borders of Afghanistan and Pakistan.  If you look closely at the geographical map of the region, the SaptaSindhu area with all the headwaters of the seven rivers draining from the Siwalk and Himalayan mountains , and here is where the Aryans first come into India and Afghanistan with the rivers Kubha, Gomati and Krumu.  It formed part of the culture of the Swat region with the rivers Suvastu, Gauri, Kusava and Trstama.  The Swat culture is the first settlement or region occupied by the Aryans.  If anyone whether it be Talageri or other revisionists who believe that the Aryans migrated out of India or that they were indigenous, is without archaeological foundation. Unlike the AIT theory which has some trace of Aryan intrusion into India, the OIT theory has not a single iota or fragment or sliver of any archaeological attestation of such a venture.  In his book, ( The Rigveda, A Historical Analysis.  Page 83 Internet Publication)  Talageri writes : 
 
  that the evidence of the hymns of the Early Period of the Rigveda, as we have already 
 seen  locates the Indo-Iranians further east: i.e  in the area from (and including) Uttar Pradesh in the east to (and including) the Punjab in the west.  It is not , therefore, Central Asia, but India, which is the original area from which  the Iranians migrated to their later historical habitats.
 
The only thing wrong with the Talageri proposal is that the Iranians and Indo-Aryans had already separated from each other.  The Indo-Aryans came into the Swat area thence to the Indus civilization. Most probably it was in Afghanistan that the Iranians branched off from the Indo-Aryans as the Aryans came into the Swat area. There they established their culture, bringing the first horse to India.  Make no mistake the Iranians knew about the Seven Rivers area since they mentioned it in their Avesta book. Talager's book as well as others are now outdated with the new discoveries on the Russian steppes of Central Asia. The archaeological sites of horses, chariots over a vast area are what now archaeologists and historians are now confirming are Indo-Iranians origins and recently the startling discovery on one of these sites of a human figure with a horse's head as exactly written in the RV reveals one important thing. That it was an incident that occured during the former life and travels of the Aryans on their way to India. Treated as a myth and dismissed by some as such, it revealed the former home and culture of the Aryans and legend had become fact. 
 
The article written by Brigadier Kaul Rattan Online called  (Aryan Sarasvat Brahmin of Kashmir) states  the following  on the location of the early  Aryans in India as they intruded into the subcontinent.  He states:  
              
        Bharatvarsha was the ancient name for the geographical  area South of the Indus 
        (Sindhu)  extending from the Northern to Central Bharatvarsha (Hindustan) including.
        geographical limits of Kashmir, East to the Western Sea and bounded on the North 
        and South by the Himalaya/ Hindukush/ Sindhu and Vindhya mountains 
        respectively.    
 
Perhaps Talageri would like to explain what the Iranians were doing in India since they were supposed to be on their way to Persia to colonize that country.  The earliest hymns reveal that the Aryans were traversing the foothills of the Siwalk and the headwaters of the Seven Rivers.  That comes from Book 2 the oldest of the Aryan hymns. It is logical that the oldest hymns which contain the earliest travels of the Aryans is factual and uncontested and that early journey ended in the Swat culture in northwest India. From here at Pirak, was discovered the remains of the first horse and cremation, a custom and innovation never before experienced in India. It is baffling that Indian historians and writers continue to argue for an Aryan Indus when the evidence reveals that the Indus people practiced an Afro-Austric custom of inhumation whilst the new intrusion of a new people reveals the IE rite of cremation.    
 
The Cemetery H Culture.  This culture is the next stage of the continuation occupation of India from which the culture takes its name, area H at Harappa.This culture developed out  of the northern part of the Punjab Seven Rivers system and occurs around the last stage of the Late Harappan  civilization. or Localisation Era.  The revisionists familiar writings of a continuity of civilization and ethnic biological theory is that the Aryans mixed and assimilated with the inhabitants which is expected and thus the skeletons discovered does not necessarily mean that the inhabitants are foreigners.  The distinguishing features of this civilization are: 
 
              1) The use of cremation of human remains.
 
              2)  Expansion of settlements into the east.
 
             3)  Rice became the staple diet. 
 
             4) Urn burials which indicated the presence of a new people. 
 
Here in this northwestern area of the Saptasindhu of India, the new intrusive people called the Aryans founded two cultures the Swat and Cemetery H still hugging the vast riverine system dominated by the Indus and Sarasvati, rivers which they worshipped in the Vedas.  The Aryans spent a short sojourn in Afghanistan where they began to compose the Vedas and this is evidenced by the mention of the Kubha and Krumu rivers in the Vedas.  Some historians say that there is no archaeological evidence that the Aryans but these rivers do flow into the Indus and left the name of Aryana, the Vedic name they gave to Afghanistan. Some sources believe that Harappan archaeology and Vedic are the same maybe so because the Aryans dominated and ruled the day. There is no such thing as Vedic Harappans. Why?  The Harappans are a different people as well as their civilization for theirs are Dravidian in origin and did not practice the cultural rites and customs until it was imposed on them.  Harappa was an Indus city built by an indigenous people of India.  Historians cannot prove that the city of Harappa owned horses and chariots before the advent of the Aryans.  How more foreign can one get?
 
Looking at the map of the SaptaSindhu with its riverine system I sometimes wonder why the Aryans chose that area to make their first settlements.  Of all the places in India why did the Aryans chose to come here?  Why this particular northwestern area?  What routes did they follow?  Why not any other area of India, say in Bengal or south in Tamil Nadu? Perhaps there are some solid reasons why they did choose this northwestern part of India due to easy access and that one easy access was the  Khyber Pass which is the only available pass in the area.  The Khyber Pass opens up to the vast plains of the Pontic region which in turn leads to the steppes of the huge  Russian grasslands.  A glance at the map shows that it is the only logical route from the Sintashta/ Androvono burial sites.  How did they hear of the SaptaSindhu with its fertile alluvial valleys and plains? Perhaps by accident they did happen onto the subcontinent or it is possible that these northern tribes  heard of the rich empires of the south and came for its booty.  Indeed , they came as freebooters.  The south with its prosperous empires were attractive targets for these nomads.  If the Aryans are an indigenous people , why did they  just develop in the northwestern corner  of India alone and not   in other parts of India? Why are the other tribal peoples of India silent in their chronicles of their  presence  in their midst? All these considerations only point to their foreign nature and customs which is quite different from   those indigenous tribes already living in India.  The Aryans most likely came from the Mittani territories which is the general opinion of  experts who reject the possibility that they came from the Indian subcontinent.  Their association with the horse, fire cult and worship, cremation and the worship and resemblances of gods similar to IE and Greek gods points to an outside migration and not an indigenous one. 
 
 
Time and again the readers and followers of revisionist scholars question the presence of the Aryans in India and seem baffled that a nomadic people as they should produce such a brilliant religious doctrine and language.  This is nothing new since skeptics of all colors are found in all disciplines and studies of history , the arts and other such academic fields.  Well, the Indus people did produce an astonishing civilization far in advance of its time and very modern and exquisitely built in retrospect to its time and people.  The Indus people are Stone Age people using more or less primitive stone tools, and yet they produced  something of value remarkable for such an age traded, maintained it and also produced or invented writing without attending scholastic classes.  Thus, they used their intelligence and wit to match their brilliance, a remarkable achievement for a people still living in the mists of antiquity.  They proved that the Age does not matter but the ability to imagine and to comprehend what to do with the tools at hand and those were very primitive tools so to speak.   
 
 
Yet the readers and revisionist followers never seem to question the Indus civilization and its achievements but in most Internet articles and publications , they question the Aryans' ability to produce such religious hymns and near perfect language. These readers can't believe or don't want to believe that the Aryans composed and wrote down such beautiful verses for religious purposes in a matter of centuries.  So why can't they? The Indus people used their imagination and resources to build a civilization out of the mists of antiquity. Then, why can't the Aryans despite being nomads gave India its great religious legacy so too did the Prophet  Mohamed gave Arabia , Islam and they were all nomads on the move.
 
The Aryans after they entered Afghanistan began to compose the Vedas and from the moment they left Afghanistan , for India they continue to compose the verses of the Vedas. The method they used , they were masters at.  They chanted everything from memory led by the Artharvans, the high priests.  Chanting the Vedas for thousands of years is the method the Rigvedic Aryans used to preserve their legacy. Yes, for those readers who doubt that the Aryans could not have created such beautiful poetry whilst on the move , that is the method they used.  They committed it to memory.  They used their ability and natural human recources even though they were nomads just like the nomads coming out of the sands of Arabia. Those Indian doubters should be aware of this since this legacy were passed down to them from their forefathers.   The rivers they encountered in India from the headwaters of the mountains they named and having known the Sarasvati in Afghanistan , they gave the Sarasvati its name. As the river began to dry up the name remained in the Vedas simply because it was taboo to change the sacred hymns.   And this brings us to the area already dominated by the Aryans. The oldest books of the Vedas which contain the early intrusion of the Aryans contain one natural phenomena which seemed to have bedeviled the Aryans as they struggled to make a living in the Seven Rivers area. And that is the rampaging floods that they wrote so much about India's raging rivers pumped up by the Monsoons every year are mentioned by the Aryans.   Here are a few from  Bk 2 alone: 
 
                                  
Book  2  Hymn V11   Verse 3       through streaming water floods.
                       
                        X I    Verse 2       floods great and many
                       
                       XII     Verse 12     Seven  great floods to flow at pleasure
                       
                      XIII     Verse 1       rapidly the floods wherein it grows
                     
                      XIII     Verse 12     Turviti heldest still the flowing floods
                   
                     XV     Verse   5       the mighty roaring flood he stayed from flowing
                
                     XIX     Verse 3        sent forth the flood of waters to the ocean
             
                     XXI     Verse 5        from him who speeds the flood
          
                     XXV    Verse 3       He, mighty like a raving billowy flood
                     
                    XXXV   Verse 3       Some floods unite themselves,  On every side the bright  
                                                 floods have encompassed
 
Book 3  Hymn   1    Verse  4       Him , Blessed One, the Seven strong Floods
                        
                      LIII    Verse  9 ... restrained the billowy river etc      
 
With the above  , one can imagine the conditions and wild landscape , huge raging rivers and deep forested jungle and craggy mountains and fertile plains that the Aryans enountered in the land of the Seven Rivers. The constant stream of overflowing rivers and raging tides and flooding the land must have tested the faith of these people.  The monsoons of India must have created havoc with the beliefs of the Aryans since these heavy downpours flooded the land and the rivers making them deadly, especially the Indus and the Sarasvati.  In parts the Sarasvati must dried up during the years but the monsoons torrential downpours which is phenomenal and extensive surely would have created awe in the world of the Aryans.  The Sarasvati's name was transferred to this great river in India for as the people of the Indus disappeared from history, the newly intrusive Aryans must have applied the name to the river.  With the fall and decline of the Indus civilization , the river which probably had a name was unknown to the newly arrived Aryans and so they gave it the name of Sarasvati, which they knew in Afghanistan.    I have read somewhere that revisionist Frawley once said that it was not possible that the Aryans could have brought horse and chariots to the northwest of India. Well, they did and the earliest books from 2--7 is full of horses and chariots. The northwest of India also contain fertile which would have accommodate horses and chariots and Frawley's et al have sought to disinform readers and supporters of the migration theory that the horses and chariots mentioned in the Vedas were symbolic connected with their religion.  How come the Aryans of the Tarim basin used chariots and horses to occupy parts of this area surrounded by rugged mountains and built a civilization?  But that is another matter.  Despite, being troubled by rising flood waters, monsoons, cold weather, the Aryans continue to invoke their most popular god Indra to help them fight off enemies and foul weather. Time and again Indra is called upon to help Aryan prayers to persevere and we divert here for a moment for a chronology of the prehistoric Aryan origin. The ridiculous Frawley et al theory of an indigenous Indus Aryan civilization does not have any foundation whatsoever.  Lets begin with the Vedas and the Avesta.  Vedas means Vedic Hymns so too do the Zend Avesta. which implies or stipulates that the Indo-Aryans and the Iranians were one people living somewhere before in an ancient homeland.   This suggests :
 
 
               a)  They are new nomadic tribes to the subcontinent.
 
               b)  The lifestyles of the Vedas and the Avesta are the same
 
               c)  They shared the same language, customs, rites, etc.
 
               d)  They used the same technology such as horses and chariots, which was 
                    unknown at that time in the region.
 
              e)   They worshipped the same gods and both religions were alike in their 
                    formative  stages.
 
              f)   They belong to the same IE family of languages and ethnicity etc.               
 
              g)  Scanning the pages of the Vedas and Avesta in detail exposes the fact that 
                   the people does not have any knowledge of  a vast subcontinent.
 
              h)  Their immediate geography is limited to certain areas and there is no 
                   knowledge of other parts of India in that earliest period.
 
              i)   The presence of names of areas and rivers in Afghanistan reveals that they 
                   knew the geography of the country and is the only other country they knew.
 
              j)   Whereas, the Indus people knew of other countries such as Sumer, 
                  Mesopotamia, Dilmun, Magan, and some Arabian countries.
 
              k)   There is not mention or knowledge of the above mentioned countries in the  
                   Vedas or the Avesta.
 
              l)   We can compare the invasion of the Aryans like the migratory methods of the 
                   Mexicans to the US, the only difference is the Aryans took over India.
 
              m) The Aryans had to come from somewhere , they just could not have 
                  evolved from the vast subcontinent.  There is no evidence to support
                  that, especially in the south, where the population is very much darker
                 than those in the north. It is reasonable that if the Aryans were in India 
                 for thousands of years, interbreeding would have produced a uniform
                 white skinned or fair skinned nation. America is only two hundred years
                 old and the Black population is turning white skinned already. With its 
                 thousands of years of history, one can imagine India would be like.
 
             n)   The Aryans who tarried in the north and northwest for thousands of years 
                  were a segregated lot and very clannish.  To make it worse their caste 
                 system for a while preserved their color.  So we can see that the north 
                 bore the brunt of the migration as they assimilated. 
             
            o)  The Androvono, BMAC and other cultures smacks of the strong smell of an Indo-
                Iranian origin with its vast burial and cremation sites of horses, chariots, wheels   
                and other practices mentioned in the Vedas. The Dadhanyac horse head legend 
                now brought back to life with its discovery on the steppes of Russia.  The burial 
                relics associated with this cultures fits nicely with IE customs and rites and 
                the migration route from the shores of the Black Sea to the Hindukush to the 
                Swat culture and the only mention of a foreign country called Afghanistan. The 
                Aryans knew the Kubha river and others. The Swat culture is the most 
                likely locus of the earliest IE presence east of the Hindus Kush of the bearers of 
                the Rigvedic culture (Wikipedia Page 5 Textual References.Internet Article)
             
           p)  The Aryans in the Vedas have not mentioned any knowledge of being familiar 
                with any people or tribes or their customs to suggest a past habitation.
 
           q)   As proven outsiders and the clinching evidence that the Aryans were that is the 
                evidence portrayed by the Swat Culture. Here there is a major change in the 
                Swat Valley with the introduction of new ceramics, burial sites and cremation
                remains in urns which is a custom of the early Vedic people from the Sapta 
                Sindhu which is reminiscent of the Trojan cremation urns. IE people are known 
                to practice this custom and not people descended from Afro-Austric lineage. 
                Then, there are horse burials and trappings.  Do the revisionists accept this?
                Thus, attempts of proponents of continuity  to portray the Rigvedic culture as
                native to the subcontinent, such as identification of horses and chariots in the
                Indus art have little or not acceptance from Indologists.  (Horse and chariot,
                Page 11 Wikipedia.  Internet Article)       
    
          r)   For those who like to quote the Nadistuti Sukta and its praise of rivers to base 
               their argument for an indigenous Aryan civilization, should look again.  The sages 
               who compiled this list, suggests that the Aryans only knew these rivers in 
               northwest India and Afghanistan. Nothing here suggests a hinterland geographic 
               knowledge of the rest of the subcontinent.
 
 
The migration into India as shown above is ironclad and I will now go on to change topic and 
 make a few comments here on the supposed theory of the Out of India model as presented by Mr. Elst's emerging model as presented in Wikipedia page 3. Internet Article.
Mr. Koenraad Elst writes:
 
              The Out of India theory as suggested by him holds  that the Indo-Iranians  were 
              remnants of the Proto-Indo Europeans culture that resided with the Indian  
              subcontinent  in the 5th millennium BC.  After the split  of the Proto-Indo-
              Iranians. The Iranians would have migrated towards the Hindu Kush  and 
              eventually  towards the Central Asia  making their discovery of the chariot during 
              this period.     
 
I am amused by his speculation which also include a map showing his theory how the 
PIE language spread from the Indus Valley outwards from India!  Mr. Elst and his colleagues still believe in an Aryan Indus and and indigenous IE civilization of India and that it spreaded outwards despite the lack of convincing evidence of habitation, custom, rites etc that these people supposed to have left behind in Indian burial sites such as horses, chariots, pottery language etc. Mr. Elst's emerging model is weak and has no foundation.  Lets see:
 
According to Mr. Elst a very highly educated and disciplined person in this craft, believed that the PIE originated in the Indus, that the Aryans left India to discover the chariot in Asia and spread the language in Europe etc. Then, 
             
 
            a) How can a people of India migrated outside to Asia to discover the chariot,
               when 6,000 years ago the sites of the Russian steppes such as Sintashta and
               Petrovka and Kazakhstan  were already buried in their burnt graves?
 
            b) If and when they got back to India why are there no evidence of horse burials
               or evidence of of chariot usage in India before the advent of the Aryans?
 
           c)  Why did they not have evidence of the use of the horse and chariot in the 
                Indus which is a complete blank in its archaeological sites. Did they come 
               to India and used the horse and chariot excluding the Indus?
 
           d)  How can PIE originate from the Indus civilization when the seals and script
                does not represent a spoken language per se?
 
           e)  New analysis of material from the graves from this area shows that these 
                chariots were built more than 4000 years ago , strengthening  their case 
               for their origin  in the steppes rather than the Middle East. ( Remaking the 
               Wheel-Evolution of the Chariot.   Science Times Book of Archaeology.  NY
               Edited by Nicholas Wade  1999. by John Noble Wilford 1994) 
 
Poor Mr. Elst et al , they cannot seem to account properly for the absence of the horse
and chariot at the Indus, hence an OIT.  This subject of the horse and chariot has thrown 
their axis out of tilt and they can't seem to get it straight.  
                                                                                                                                     I'd like to make a point on the subject of horses to those who believe that the Indus was a center for horse breeding from the inception of the Indus civilization circa 3500BC.   Indian historians and some archaeologists have written a host of articles of horses at the Indus and reported findings of bones and remains.   Also, we hear how the Indus empire was far flung in its trading with other nations such as Sumer, Mesopotamia and Arab lands.  We read of the vast trading commerce of the Indus people with their sailing ships and we read of the products they traded with other people.  Also , most of the Indian writers and historians state how vast deposits of horse bones are found in most Indus cities. If all this is true , then why in the trading documents are there no mention of horse trading of Indus ships with the other nations?  Where are the detailed descriptions of the color of the horse, the breed of the horse etc in the trading lists of the Indus traders?  Where are the parts of the chariots that was traded from the Indus to other cities and civilizations?   Why are there no details of horse trading from the other lands , especially from the Arabs?   How is it that the Indus ALONE possessed the horse from 3500BC, and no other civilization or city has no textual evidence of its presence within that time?    The Indus was indeed overflowing with bones, asses and onagers.   The Indus civilization drew on an inexhausted supply of asses and onagers from the Rann Of Kutch where the ass is known as khurs.   This is where the Indus people derived the source of their transport , because the Rann OF Kutch was overflowing with asses and onagers and they were used for transport, pack animals, dray carts along with the oxen and bulls.   Even today the area still depends on the Rann Of Kutch for its pack animals.   So the Indian historians and archaeologists should stop looking in every nook and cranny of the Indus for horses.  They didn't exist.  If any Indian archaeologist or historian could find any textual evidence that the Indus traded in horses with their neighbors , I'd recommend him for a Nobel Peace Prize.   Indian scholars and historians who fervently believe in an Aryan Indus love to include in their books and pieces supposed evidence of horse bones, remains and fauna in the cities and sites of the ancient Indus.   But none so far can prove that evidence exists that the Indus possessed this technology and as I have said above that if the Indus people knew this animal , they would have left evidence of horse trading in those ancient times.  It is amazing that several historians and scholars give glowing accounts of reasons why the Indus is of Aryan origin but omits the main animal-- the horse and worse yet go into detail about Indus trade and yet cannot produce attestation of horse trading.   Every conceivable item, article and artifact is detailed for the trade industry for the Indus but the trade in horses is missing. Dr. Subhash Kak, a devotee of Aryan Indus in his article:  "Vedic Elements In the Ancient Iranian Religion of Zarathushtra" ( Pages 51-56) makes a comparison of the two religions but ominiously leaves out the horse and chariot  but includes the cow.  This is cynical of the writings of historical revisionists who write and publish articles as the true history of India arguing for an Aryan Indus but omits the horse and chariot.  This kind of argument never clinches their theories.  Or if they do mention the horse and chariot, they rely on the false layer of deposits of ass bones found in the Indus as evidence of the animal's existence.    A horse rich  Aryan Indus existing from 3500BC should leave us and archaeologists a vast amount of remains of a horse culture, a culture of attestation which should exhibit the training  and breeding of horses, textual evidence of horse management, use of the horse as a mode of transport or for martial purposes and written documents of horse trade with the surrounding empires.  None of this is available in the ruins of the Indus and while the Aryans and Trojans are superb examples of horse breeding, of which the evidence attests to this, the Indus are not known to have seen a horse and therefore are not horse breeders.  There is no pictorial evidence of interaction or integration of the horse and chariot in the evidence produced so far in the Indus.  There are no seals or scripts attesting to people of the Indus driving chariots pulled by horses as we have seen in other societies.  If any animals were used in the Indus civilization , they were amply supplied by the limitless herds of asses and onagers roaming the Rann Of Kutch, known as khurs.   As G.L  Possehl the archaeologist said,     
 
             
               "As far as I can tell, there are lots of asses documented at the Indus 
              settlements , but not domestic horses."
 
Who else can be more right?  All this has been confirmed by Meadow and Kenoyer the two leading archaeologists in the Indus excavations and most times they are irritated by the revisionist scholars whose enthusiasm carries they them away.  This is what the various Hindunet articles are trying to suggest that the donkey carts of the Indus is a point of origin for the development of lightly rolling war chariots of the Vedas.   They are employing  lexemes, morphemes,  phonemes and various other  subtle ingenuous and insidious word building  in these articles in order to fit the Aryans war machine for an Aryan Indus society when the archaeological evidence does not produce such a picture.   Other internet articles state that:
 
              Carts were  pulled by oxen and asses in Sumeria between 3000 and 2750 BC 
              By the time of the Copper Age , 3000BC solid wheels and axles were used. 
              There are records of two four wheeled carts pulled by oxen and asses in
              Sumeria and Mesopotamia between the above date.  Also many model carts 
              have been dug up.   (www. Techitouk.com)
              
              The King of  Sumer rides out in cart pulled by 4 donkeys for war.
              (www.answerbag.com)   
 
If the reader notices , these are the same time period which so called horse bones are found in the Indus and this brings up the following questions , which I am sure no historian or scholar of a revisionist nature will attempt to answer.
 
 
            a) If there was an Aryan indigenous civilization with the above dates, where are the
                cremation sites or urns from this time period? The Trojan civilization produced 
                cremation sites and urns from this early period.
 
           b) Why is there no evidence of a deep and vast horse culture in the Indus?  
 
           c) Why are there no remains of sacrifice and buried chariots which is the custom of 
               Aryan people?  
 
 
          d) If the Aryans were indigenous to India why is there an absence of such 
             documentation in the texts and chronicles of other neighboring clans and tribes?
 
          e)  Why is there only mention of cremation in the Vedas and not in other 
             chronicles?
 
           f)  Why is there only mention of horse sacrifice only in the Vedas and not in other 
               chronicles of the other people?
 
          g) Most important of all, how can the Indus possess horses in a vaccum at a time
             when other empires did not have them?  Did the Indus alone have them?  If so 
             why are there no evidence of trade?   
          
 
        h)  The Indus as a civilization has failed to demonstrate or illustrate its familiarity with 
             horses in a two fold manner:
 
                 The absence of interaction and integration of its people, history and 
                 archaeological remains with the horse and chariot.
                 There is no pictorial or illustrative carvings, engravings or writings that allude to it 
                 familiarity of the horse with its people. eg. there is no pictures of people 
                 together with horses and chariots, no writings or  seals that reveal the 
                 breedings, categories or worshipful reverence of the horse or allusions to rich 
                 people owning horses or horses used as transport in the cities.
 
                 Secondly, the Indus civilization as a cluster for habitation for survival has no 
                 evidence that the horse existed as an integrative icon in its religion, culture , 
                 lifestyle or as a tool for transport or for martial purposes.  Its absence as an  
                 integrative icon or symbol in the society of the Indus is complete.  Historians 
                 and archaeologists as AK . Sharma and Bonkoyi  are dead wrong.  They cannot 
                 prove that the horse was used for trading nor can anyone else connected with 
                 the Indus.  The Indus has no evidence of trading in horses and thus its 
                 integrative absence is true.  Also, had the horse existed in the Indus , its rulers 
                 would have certainly traded its value, used it for personal and martial purposes 
                 etc. I challenge anyone to provide evidence that the Indus traded horses with its 
                 neighbors between 3500BC-2500BC when supposedly horse bones and 
                 remains were found in its soils of its cities.
 
I once posed this question to Mr. Elst about the question of evidence of horse trade from the Indus with their neighbors.  His answer was not satisfactory nor was his attitude conducive to me in his reply.   The trading of horses as an industry or occupation in the Indus is non-existent and revisionist writers bask in the glory of the greatness of the Indus in their trading relations with their neighbors. Dozens of books , articles and publications are devoted to the huge trading industry of the Indus with the distant empires and cities in faraway lands. We also read about the Indus people , especially sailors and merchants and traders lived in Sumer, Mesopotamia and other foreign lands and carried on trade with their counterparts. This is the time period that  where most revisionist theories date the supposedly Aryan Indus from 3500BC to 2700BC in which horse remains and bones are plentiful in the Indus cities from Ropar in the north to Surkotada down south.and even further.    Then there is the familiar terracota finds of horse figurines and such things that some archaeologists and historians label as true findings of the existence of the horse at the Indus.  Mr. Elst's long list of horse bones and remains is grand and convincing if one does not delve further into the history of the Indus.    Here is a piece from the Internet dated July 9 2003. titled 
 
                              Trade and Economics of the Indus:  The Harappan Tradition.
 
      
         A complex system  of trade networks made the Harappans  rich and guaranteed 
        access to exotic goods.  Internal networks moved every imaginable  good throughout 
        the Civilization.  Shell, dried fish, and pearls from the coast; copper, tin, chert, 
        precious metals and semiprecious  stone from the hill country,  and grain, animals, 
        and  wood from the rural areas flowed from one area to another, resulting  in a 
        nearly  homogenous distribution of goods across the face of the civilization irrespective
        of origin. Networks  extended into  Central Asia, Mesopotamia, and the Arabian 
        Peninsula.   These networks exported  every good  and luxury available in the 
        Harappan  Civilization.  It is unclear  what was being  imported, but it is likely to be 
        wool , fish and grain.
 
                                               Subsistence and  Trade
 
        Subsistence and trade settlements  lay on the flood plains of the Indus and Gha
        riverss, where fertile land was annually refreshed by innundation.  Recent research
        has shown wheat, barley, pulses, millets, fibers/ oilseed, melons ,coucumbers, 
        squashes , and water buffalo, goat and sheep provided animal products.Floodplains
        lack raw materials, urban economies provided surplus for exchange to oil. Kenoyer  
        proposed  a series of trade or resource routes linking  the urbanized centers with 
        areas of lapis lazulli,  carnelian, steatite, shells, chert, tin, copper and gold.  These
        materials  processed were redistributed within the Indus region and the surplus was
        traded to the Persian Gulf states as far as Elam and Mesopotamia.
        (Welcome to the Human Past Page 5&#38;6 Internet Article 12/14/06) 
        
  I will now continue with the Indus and its trading partners from the Internet article which is quite a thick document and has the following headlines.  Of course, I am only extending the discoveries of the trade of the Indus and the neighboring cites and empires. I am doing this to point out a few instances where trade is claimed by the authors of this document dated  12/5/06 and has three separate titles.  This will show precisely what was traded for the three different regions. viz:    
 
                   Central Asia, Mesopotamia and Sarasvati Sindhu civilization
 
                   Sarasvati Sindhu civilization is one tip of the triangle linking
                   with the Central Asian and Mesopotamian cultural areas.
 
                  Bactrian - Margian - Archaeological - Complex   BMAC
 
 
   From Bactria peculiarly the article does not say that trade was done with the Indus and the author assumed  that,
 
  " there is every ground to assume the dissemination from it of metal-works (celts, daggers, 
    pins)  and specific forms of earthenware (stemmed vases, saucers etc) in the eastern 
   direction down to the valley of the Indus, by way of exchange, trade and cultural 
    contacts.  This period embraces the existence of the Harappan civilization and does 
    not presuppose  the arrival of new tribes.  This is strikingly proved by the Harappa 
    culture itself, which demonstrates a continuous line of development  without any 
    invasions from outside. We shall merely remark that southwestern Iran and possibly 
    Caucasus emerge as a zpne where numerous metal articles come to be produced(mid 
    2nd millennium BC)  while Iranian Khorassan is doubtlessly the main venue for  their 
    penetration  into the southern areas of central Asia, Bactria  and possibly  the valley of 
    the Indus.
(Viktor I. Sarianidi, 1979, New Finds in Bactria and Indo-Iranian Connections, pp 643-659,    South Asian Archaeology 1977, Naples)          
                 
                   
      The above information as I said looks peculiar to me.  Here we have an assume trading of goods between  BMAC region, Iran, and the Caucasus in the 2nd Millennium and only the mention of metal articles are noted for trade.  This region is famous for horses because this is where the Aryans came down from the Black Sea area             
 
 
 
                         The Horse  in Sarasvati  Sindhu  Civilization
 
 
   States  dating Tepe Hissar IIIB  a little before  2000 BC ... skull of horse found and 
   furthermore the horse is alleged to have been  domesticated at Sha Tepe much 
   earlier still thus anticipating it appearance at Boghazkoy in Central Asia Minor in the 
   Hittite period.....   
 
What does this tell you?  The theme running through this paragraph is that the skull is  found at Hissar IIIB  and domesticated at Shah Tepe says just that and nothing else. It does not say anything about the Indus.  It does not connect the Indus with ShahTepe nor does it say that the horse was known at the Indus.  The next few paragraphs from:                             
 
             AK  Sharma,  The  Harappan horse was buried under the  dunes of  ... in
             Puratattva.....In the Harrapan levels  over here  have been found clearly 
             identifiable terracota figurines  of this animal.                                                                             
             
             (Pages 3,4,5 and 6.Mackay FEM , MEL Mellowan 1965 Early Mesopotamian and 
              Iran,  London Thames and Hudson p. 123             
 
             Vol 1, page 289,  Ak Sharma, Bulletin of the Indian Archaeological Society No 23, 
             1992-93  pp. 30-34, Mackay  FEM Vol 1  p 289  Wheeler  Indus Civilization 1968
             p. 92  Cambridge. Prof. S Bokonyl, Director Archaeological  Institute Budapest  13
              Dec 1993 ,  Dr Joshi,. Archaeological Survey of India,  S. Rao, and B Nauth of 
             the  Zoological Survey of India 1985 p. 641,    Lal, 1998  p. 112 ,   Gupta 1979,      
             Vol. 2   
 
The professional names quoted above have put their signature and approval to the supposed horse finds at Surkotada, Mohenjodaro,  Kolidhwa,  Mahagara,  Kachchha, northern 
Baluchistan, Lothal,  Nausharo,  and other areas.   The carbon dating for these finds are from 3500 BC to 2315 BC and further down.  Finds include supposedly, teeth, bones of true horse,  terracota figurines, upper and  lower   cheek,  incisors and phalanges or to bones, intermaxilla  fragment , crib biting, faunal remains, cheek teeth, spur or protocone and upper molars of these supposed horses.   What a find!  Now, let us for argument sake say that all these finds are true, then we can come to only one conclusion and that is the following:
 
 
                 a)  Why aren't there evidence of  horse trade with the neighbors ot the Indus?
 
                 b)  The bloody place seemed to be overrunning with horses and yet we can't 
                      find one engraving or etching on the seals and script. Why?
 
                 c)  How come the Indus have so many horses and her neighbors don't have no 
                      evidence of trading in horses, no documentation to attest to this activity with 
                      the Indus.
                 d)  Horse trade among IE people is a lucrative trade but the supposed Aryan 
                      Indus seem to be bereft of this activity. Wht?
                 
 
                 e)  It appears that all the experts who contributed to this article cannot seem to
                      tell the difference between asses, onagers and half asses and the true
                      horse.
 
                 f)   None of the trading partners as far as the Arabian lands have no evidence 
                     that they possessed the horse during this period of 3500 BC and 2700BC
 
                 g)  All the Internet  articles written by the revisionists only allude to finds of  
                     horse bones for a particular area and not directly to the Indus civilization.
                     None of the articles proves that direct horse bones and remains have been 
                     found at the Indus.  
   
                 h)  Most likely and the only area which supplied the Indus and its partners with  
                     the ass , onager and half assses was from the great resource of the Rann of 
                     Kutch, on which great herds of these animals grazed. This is the area where 
                    the asses came from to supply the transport industry.  Also, find a few horse 
                    bones, if they are true horse bones ,does not make the the Indus Aryan.  This 
                    was a prized animal of the Aryans and highly valued, traded, breeded and 
                    worshipped and cared for.  We see nothing of this in the history of the Indus.
                    I see nothing in the seals or scripts saying or describing a horse, its breed, its 
                    uses or indications that the horse was used at the Indus.
 
             
 
The Rigvedas is replete with horses and for those who still maintain that the Indus civilization is Aryan, here are a few examples of Aryan knowledge of horse breeding:
 
        BOOK     HYMN      TITLE       VERSE     DESCRIPTION
 
           2            1          Agni              5          givest noble steeds
   
           2            1          Agni             16         with kine and steeds
 
           2            2          Agni             10        valor with the steed
 
           2            2          Agni             13        kine and steeds
 
           2          10          Agni              2         dark steeds or ruddy
 
          2           11          Indra             6         two Bay steeds
 
          2           11         Indra            11        Indra, thy Bay steeds
 
          2          18          Indra            18        thy two Bay Coursers
 
          3           7                               2         heaven hath Mares
 
          3          35          Indra             3         Tawny  Horses
 
          3          36          Indra             9         Lord of the Tawny Coursers
 
          3         42           Indra             7         by thy Stallions
 
          3         43          Indra             4         let thy two Bay Stallions
 
          3         44          Indra           2&#38;4       Lord of Tawny Steeds
 
          3         30         Indra              2         with thy Bay horses
 
          3        43          Indra             23       a sluggish steed men run not with the 
                                 Parvata                    the courser, nor ever lead an ass before     
                                                                a charger.
       
         5        53/64     Maruts          3&#38;9      They came with winged steeds
                                Asvins                       with your winged steeds 
         
         5        56          Maruts          6         the bright red mares        
 
         5        59          Maruts          5         like steeds of ruddy color       
 
 
   The Aryans were super horsebreeders and they knew it  like the back of their hands the categories of horses that they used for transport and war, there was the Bays, the Coursers, the mares, the stallions and the steeds chargers  They also knew flying horses which connect them with their Greek cousins with Pegasus etc.   Can a supposedly Aryan 
Indus civilization have any evidence to show that they knew such details about horses?  Not likely.  So why do the revisionists still cling to the sterile imagination of an Aryan Indus when such details of an animal was not in their conception of an Aryan Indus?    Where can one find such detail about horses in Elst's supposedly Aryan Indus?      All this is followed in the Vedas of details of the intricate part of the chariot which again is not found in the seals and script of the Indus.  If the Indus knew the horse I still fail to see any evidence of detailed inscriptions or documents that they were familiar with the subject.  The seals are blank as well as the script and this idea of an Aryan Indus is a very strange vision that has gripped the revisionists and every article and book they write has this idea as a background story.   The Indus civilization do not only has to prove that the horse existed there  but has to show further attestation of its presence.  And that brings me to the most important concept of its presence in the Indus which is two fold.
 
            1)    The revisionists will have to show its interactive  role in the daily lives of the 
                   people.                                                                                                               
            2)   The revisionists will have to show evidence that the animal was an 
                  integrative part of its civilization.
 
 
 The Indus civilization had the necessary resources to leave evidence that they were familiar with the horse as an integrated factor of their society.  Since its discovery site after site has shown nothing that could tell archaeologists that the horse was as integrated as the other animals such as the oxen and bullock and asses. There are plenty of asses , onagers and half asses as GL Possehl says but no evidence of the domesticated horse. None of the discoveries has exposed the real form of the horse or nary a close resemblance.  That has gotten as far as the onager which are being mistaken for the real thing.  The walls of the buildings also , unlike the Egyptian walls and tombs contain absolutely no etchings, paintings, carvings etc of the true horse. These people could write and it is strange that they never left us any image of the horse in their society.  Therefore, one can only come to the conclusion that the horse was not a familiar sight in the eyes and knowledge of the Indus people.    There are no references to the animal in the Indus society nor in its belief system or religion if any existed.  From day one the archaeologists have been digging up the bones of oxen , asses , bullocks , onagers and half asses which  was plentiful at the Rann Of Kutch and from where the Indus people solicited these animals.  But nothing that points to the presence of horses has ever been found and they realized that the absence of a horse culture and its trappings was not there.   The other part of this concept is the interactive side of the equation.   Other civilizations have illustrated how they interacted with their animals but this too is absent from the Indus.  There are no carvings, illustrations, seals and other such graphic themes that would tell us that the Indus people was using this animal for transport purposes , war, travel or for royal journeys as is done in other societies who knew it.   This is understandable  in that the horse did not reach the Stone Age societies of these civilizations at this time in antiquity.  We see no drawings of the Indus people riding horses or references to it, no seals containing imprints of its form nor of its people driving chariots pulled by horses.  All this is absent as well as the absence of stables and stalls for the animals and workshops to care for the vehicles and animals.  Horses need a special kind of care , they have to be well fed, groomed, medically fit, trained and a host of other things. It is a point well taken that had horses existed at the Indus , they would certainly would have had horse trade with the other cities and empires  but this too is absent, quite the opposite to the superb Aryan horse breeders and trainers. Nowhere are there any evidence that the traders indulged in this practice and there are no reference to the different kinds of horse breeds which is the first important thing a  horse trader looks for. No documentation exists on this subject.  Indus society has no reference in its daily lifestyle that point to the animal was interacting with their lives.  
 
People who want to change the history of India,  must not only do away with something they find offensive or repugnant , but they must replace it with something of value and authentic.  An Aryan Indus is not authentic nor is it being replaced with something of value. It is being replaced bya lie. But alas, other than the scholars and historians who really believe in an Aryan Indus , there are others who follow their misguided paths based on their wrong assumptions and mistaken history of India.  Other than the history of the Vedas, the geography of the Rigveda is also under fire to suit the claims of those who advocate the Aryan Indus theory. And that is what it will remain a theory.  
 
 
I now refer Mr. R Goel's " Geography of the Rigveda" published on the Internet on 17/2/03 where he attempted to convince his readers that the Aryans of India are indigenous and that the Indus is Aryan.  I personally think that it is an excellent attempt to prove the above but it has it flaws.   For one,  on page 15, he writes:
 
 
                    That the historical movement of the Vedic Aryans across the Sutudri 
                    Vipas rivers at the time of  Sudas, can only be a westward movement.
 
Now, why would the Vedic Aryans who is supposed to be indigenous to India stop  in this area which contains  the Cemetery H Culture?  This Culture is described by Wikipedia.org on  page 1 as the following: 
 
                    The distinguishing features of this culture include: 
                     
                    a) The use of cremation  of human remains. The bones were stored
                        in painted pottery burial urns.  This is completely different to the
                        Indus civilization  where bodies were buried in wooden coffins.
 
                    b) Reddish pottery , a completely different pottery to the Indus.
 
                    c) Expansion of settlements into the east.  This is evidence in 
                        contrast to Goel's east to west scenario. His scenario has
                       no attestation of such a movement. 
 
                    d) The cultivation of rice as a crop by the Aryans who learned it 
                        from the Indus people etc.
 
This is a classic example of the overlaying of a new culture over the old one and of course
the Aryans went through a process of assimilation, linguistic, cultural and political changes from the people they met from the Indus.  Mr. Goel's article of Aryans coming from the interior has no foundation since he cannot provide textual attestation that this is so.  Whereas, evidence can be provided that the Aryans did come into India and left their mark in the form of culture , cremation, religion and political apparatus etc.    But the major flaw in his article is the omission of the horse in the section that he discusses the animals of the Vedas.   From page 31, he began to cite the names of animals found in the Vedas and they are the elephant, the buffalo, the bison the peacock and the spotted deer. On page 33 he states:
 
                  Further, the names of these animals are purely Aryan Indo-European: the 
                 elephant for example, has four names each of which has a purely  Aryan 
                 etymology.
 
All well and good , but what happened to the horse? Mr.  Goel. It seems that you have either forgotten the horse, overlooked it deliberately or chose to ignore it completely. This is the same journalistic transgression most revisionist writers do for the above reason.  It is fascinating to see some of them composing histories of India and more or less just devote a few lines to the horse and chariot or chose not to.  Maybe  I should bring it to the attention of Mr.  Goel, if he hasn't noticed it already that his Rigvedic rivers are all confined to the north-west of India and he cannot provide any substantial evidence that the Aryans existed in an indigenous state in India.  So if they did as he and other revisionists claim , then where are the attestation for this? Why are the revisionists only arguing for an Aryan Indus from the perspective of textual evidence from the Vedas, supposed evidence from the Indus, from the geography of the Vedic rivers, and not in return for evidence from other parts of India?  Can Mr. Goel supply any evidence of Aryan indigenity for the following points?
 
                   a)  Any concrete evidence of Aryan habitation in India that
                       can say that Aryans lived here?
 
                   b) Any attested sites of cremation and burial of Aryans before 1500BC
 
                   c) Remains of their pottery and artifacts.
 
                   d) Textual evidence of the supposed Aryan neighboring tribes that 
                       can verify that Aryans once occupied the land before their 
                      supposed migration out of India.
 
                  e)  That horses and chariots existed in India before the advent of 
                       the Aryans in 1500BC.
 
If Mr.  Goel can provide these answers to the above then he has a case along Talageri et al. These writers and historians though they mean well, are screwed in their logic of trying to paint the Indus as Aryan.  Their points of history of India is okay except for a few ideas that are flawed. One is that the Aryan Indus existed since 3500 BC and the other is the migration out of India.  The other is the problem of the Sarasvati river and the other is the vexing one of the horse and chariot which has so far eluded them and thus making their theories outdated and impossible and illogical.  First we will discuss the Sarasvati river which , since the satellite discovery of its disappearance  has been jumped on by the historical writers who are using it to clinch their case to overthrow the Aryan occupation of India.   We can see from the location of the Cemetery H civilization and settlements that the Aryans did not come from the East but from the north where they sojourned in Afghanistan.  They had to be because Afghanistan ancient Aryan name is Arianna and this is an Aryan name and it is from this region where the Vedic people came from from their journey from Central Asia.  One can believe that the rivers of the north-west of India were not named with their present names when the Indus civilization reigned supreme.  What these people called the rivers we don't know.  But where did the Aryans come up with the name Sarasvati?  It only had to come from some river they knew before and when they came into India and saw the river it was already drying up or in it last stages.  They called it Sarasvati nevertheless from the one they knew back in Afghanistan. But one may ask why then should they glorify a river with such praise and epithets when probably it does not deserve it.  The only logical reason is two fold:                                                                  
                                               
                      1 ) the Aryan custom of chanting and singing praises 
       
                      2)  the sacredness of the religion and the taboo of changing 
                          words and religious articles of faith
 
This may sound far fetched but the Aryan custom of chanting praises and verses still exist today as deeply as ever in every facet of its religion. One must remember this is a time of antiquity , an age of deep religious faith, in which verses and certain  words chanted in good faith cannot be changed with the snap of a finger and is resisted by the sages, bards and seers of the tradition.  We see this even today in the exact measurement of the fire altars which still have the exact length and with from thousands of years, of which not an iota has been altered.   Thus , when the Aryans were in Afghanistan the local river which they named Sarasvati were praised and this was written down in the Vedas thousands of years before but was chanted as the same and they knew that the one in India ran to the sea. Nevertheless, they applied the same chanting praise and epithets to it.  Perhaps, the Indian Sarasvati still packed some power , since the seasonal monsoon rains and floods probably ravaged the land before it petered out.  That is why the Vedas still has the written words because it was handed down thousands of years , exactly as it was first spoken by the priestly Brahmins so long ago.   I do not think for one moment a religious people as the Aryans were would worship a completely dried out river with such praises nor anyone in their right minds. Now,we turn to Mr. Goel's theory of an east to west movement for indigenous  Aryans of India which is all wrong for I will provide  a chart grid to show why this is so viz:   
 
 
                  F i r s t     M e n t i  o  n   O f   S a r a s v a t i   I n     V e d a s
                              
 
Name of Historian    Earliest BK     Hymn   Verse      Name                   First Mentioned Of
 
                 Witzel            2                41       16       Various Dieties      Sarasvati
                
         Revisionists            6                61        1        Sarasvati              Sarasvati     
 
 
      
                 F i r s t     M e n t i o n     O f      H o r s e s     I n      V e d a s
 
 
Name  of  Historian   Earliest BK     Hymn    Verse     Name                First Mentioned Of
 
 
               Witzel              2                 1          5        Agni                   Steeds or Horses
 
       Revisionists              6                 2          8        Agni                   Steeds or Horses
 
 
 
 F i r s t    M e n t i o n   O f    H o r s e s   A n d    S a r a s v a t i   I n     BK    ONE
 
 
                             Earliest BK       Hymn    Verse    Name 
 
 
      HORSES                1                  3           6       Asvins        </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>:    To: Mr.Shrikant Talageri and others.        :<br />
The idea that the Aryans are an indigenous lot is absurd as the theory that the Indus is Aryan.  It is all plain for everyone to see despite the hundreds of books , articles and internet reports, that the Aryans are an intrusive people into India.<br />
For sometime now  I have been reading several articles of the case for  and against  AIT/AMT versus  OIT.  Although the Indian historians and certain archaeologists have more or less proven that there was no invasion per se of India, by Indo-Aryans , the fact still remain that India was and still is occupied by the descendants of the Vedic Aryans whose culture and history make up what is India today and including those from the Indus civilization. A detailed reading and study of the various opinions by those historians and archaeologists on this website, especially from India still maintain and doubt that the horse and chariot came from outside the country and  who insist that horses and chariots are indigenous to the land.     I have perceived that there are three major points which mostly the Indian historians are stubbornly refusing to concede and that is :</p>
<p>           (A)    They continue to hang on to the dead theory that the Indus<br />
                    civilization is Aryan and indigenous.</p>
<p>           (B)     Despite the mountain of official documented and textual<br />
                     evidence from various sources eg: Andronovan proven Indo-<br />
                    Iranian sites,  evidence from the Vedas itself,  lack of evidence of<br />
                    horses and chariots in ancient India before the advent of the<br />
                    Aryans etc, Indian officials and historians still attempt to castigate<br />
                    the authors and doubt the  veracity of the documented and<br />
                    archaeological evidence. </p>
<p>          (C)     The clear absence of archaeological and attestation of horse trade<br />
                   between the Indus Civilization and its neighbors in the time period<br />
                   of supposed finds of horse remains.</p>
<p>We begin from the beginning by placing the Aryans outside of India rather than being an indigenous people living thousands of years in India as so many Indian scholars believe. It is a fact that the Avesta places a home for the Aryans who sojourned outside India, which they called Airyana Vaejah or Aryan Homeland.  The Aryans came through the Northwest of what is now today the state of Pakistan. That  old natural pass called the Khyber. This same pass was used by different conquerors to conquer India in later times. This is a northwest route , not an east or west or south route and you can see from the geographical map where the Aryans forded and settled for a time calling it the Saptasindhu of which Five Rivers of the area were Shutudri called the Sutlej, the Vipasha or Vipash now called the Beas, the Parushini now called the Ravi, the Vitasta now called the Jhelum. Two main rivers were added called the Indus or Sindhu and the Sarasvati making it the Seven Rivers. The following points shows why the Aryans are intruders to India.</p>
<p>a)     Despite, the writings and articles of Indian historians, archaeologists  and Internet writers, these are the only rivers other than the Ganga and Yamuna mentioned in the Vedas.  If the Aryans were indigenous people, why didn&#8217;t they mention the Kaveri, the Krishna, the Bhima,  the Godavari, the Narmada, the Chambal and the others?</p>
<p>b)     Why didn&#8217;t they mention all the other civilizations such as the Indus, and those of Southern India etc?</p>
<p>c)     Some may have noticed that the Vedas descriptions of their life and society only is confined to the northwest of India.  There is no mention of areas of Bengal,  Tamil Nadu or Maharastra and other areas.   </p>
<p>d)     Do the historical departments of India and other such cultural organizations have the names of the original rivers , because these are mostly Rigvedic names.  If the Harappans occupied  the Indus civilizations for so long, surely they must have names for these rivers. </p>
<p>This is the only way the Aryans could have come into India and that is through the Khyber Pass between the borders of Afghanistan and Pakistan.  If you look closely at the geographical map of the region, the SaptaSindhu area with all the headwaters of the seven rivers draining from the Siwalk and Himalayan mountains , and here is where the Aryans first come into India and Afghanistan with the rivers Kubha, Gomati and Krumu.  It formed part of the culture of the Swat region with the rivers Suvastu, Gauri, Kusava and Trstama.  The Swat culture is the first settlement or region occupied by the Aryans.  If anyone whether it be Talageri or other revisionists who believe that the Aryans migrated out of India or that they were indigenous, is without archaeological foundation. Unlike the AIT theory which has some trace of Aryan intrusion into India, the OIT theory has not a single iota or fragment or sliver of any archaeological attestation of such a venture.  In his book, ( The Rigveda, A Historical Analysis.  Page 83 Internet Publication)  Talageri writes : </p>
<p>  that the evidence of the hymns of the Early Period of the Rigveda, as we have already<br />
 seen  locates the Indo-Iranians further east: i.e  in the area from (and including) Uttar Pradesh in the east to (and including) the Punjab in the west.  It is not , therefore, Central Asia, but India, which is the original area from which  the Iranians migrated to their later historical habitats.</p>
<p>The only thing wrong with the Talageri proposal is that the Iranians and Indo-Aryans had already separated from each other.  The Indo-Aryans came into the Swat area thence to the Indus civilization. Most probably it was in Afghanistan that the Iranians branched off from the Indo-Aryans as the Aryans came into the Swat area. There they established their culture, bringing the first horse to India.  Make no mistake the Iranians knew about the Seven Rivers area since they mentioned it in their Avesta book. Talager&#8217;s book as well as others are now outdated with the new discoveries on the Russian steppes of Central Asia. The archaeological sites of horses, chariots over a vast area are what now archaeologists and historians are now confirming are Indo-Iranians origins and recently the startling discovery on one of these sites of a human figure with a horse&#8217;s head as exactly written in the RV reveals one important thing. That it was an incident that occured during the former life and travels of the Aryans on their way to India. Treated as a myth and dismissed by some as such, it revealed the former home and culture of the Aryans and legend had become fact. </p>
<p>The article written by Brigadier Kaul Rattan Online called  (Aryan Sarasvat Brahmin of Kashmir) states  the following  on the location of the early  Aryans in India as they intruded into the subcontinent.  He states:  </p>
<p>        Bharatvarsha was the ancient name for the geographical  area South of the Indus<br />
        (Sindhu)  extending from the Northern to Central Bharatvarsha (Hindustan) including.<br />
        geographical limits of Kashmir, East to the Western Sea and bounded on the North<br />
        and South by the Himalaya/ Hindukush/ Sindhu and Vindhya mountains<br />
        respectively.    </p>
<p>Perhaps Talageri would like to explain what the Iranians were doing in India since they were supposed to be on their way to Persia to colonize that country.  The earliest hymns reveal that the Aryans were traversing the foothills of the Siwalk and the headwaters of the Seven Rivers.  That comes from Book 2 the oldest of the Aryan hymns. It is logical that the oldest hymns which contain the earliest travels of the Aryans is factual and uncontested and that early journey ended in the Swat culture in northwest India. From here at Pirak, was discovered the remains of the first horse and cremation, a custom and innovation never before experienced in India. It is baffling that Indian historians and writers continue to argue for an Aryan Indus when the evidence reveals that the Indus people practiced an Afro-Austric custom of inhumation whilst the new intrusion of a new people reveals the IE rite of cremation.    </p>
<p>The Cemetery H Culture.  This culture is the next stage of the continuation occupation of India from which the culture takes its name, area H at Harappa.This culture developed out  of the northern part of the Punjab Seven Rivers system and occurs around the last stage of the Late Harappan  civilization. or Localisation Era.  The revisionists familiar writings of a continuity of civilization and ethnic biological theory is that the Aryans mixed and assimilated with the inhabitants which is expected and thus the skeletons discovered does not necessarily mean that the inhabitants are foreigners.  The distinguishing features of this civilization are: </p>
<p>              1) The use of cremation of human remains.</p>
<p>              2)  Expansion of settlements into the east.</p>
<p>             3)  Rice became the staple diet. </p>
<p>             4) Urn burials which indicated the presence of a new people. </p>
<p>Here in this northwestern area of the Saptasindhu of India, the new intrusive people called the Aryans founded two cultures the Swat and Cemetery H still hugging the vast riverine system dominated by the Indus and Sarasvati, rivers which they worshipped in the Vedas.  The Aryans spent a short sojourn in Afghanistan where they began to compose the Vedas and this is evidenced by the mention of the Kubha and Krumu rivers in the Vedas.  Some historians say that there is no archaeological evidence that the Aryans but these rivers do flow into the Indus and left the name of Aryana, the Vedic name they gave to Afghanistan. Some sources believe that Harappan archaeology and Vedic are the same maybe so because the Aryans dominated and ruled the day. There is no such thing as Vedic Harappans. Why?  The Harappans are a different people as well as their civilization for theirs are Dravidian in origin and did not practice the cultural rites and customs until it was imposed on them.  Harappa was an Indus city built by an indigenous people of India.  Historians cannot prove that the city of Harappa owned horses and chariots before the advent of the Aryans.  How more foreign can one get?</p>
<p>Looking at the map of the SaptaSindhu with its riverine system I sometimes wonder why the Aryans chose that area to make their first settlements.  Of all the places in India why did the Aryans chose to come here?  Why this particular northwestern area?  What routes did they follow?  Why not any other area of India, say in Bengal or south in Tamil Nadu? Perhaps there are some solid reasons why they did choose this northwestern part of India due to easy access and that one easy access was the  Khyber Pass which is the only available pass in the area.  The Khyber Pass opens up to the vast plains of the Pontic region which in turn leads to the steppes of the huge  Russian grasslands.  A glance at the map shows that it is the only logical route from the Sintashta/ Androvono burial sites.  How did they hear of the SaptaSindhu with its fertile alluvial valleys and plains? Perhaps by accident they did happen onto the subcontinent or it is possible that these northern tribes  heard of the rich empires of the south and came for its booty.  Indeed , they came as freebooters.  The south with its prosperous empires were attractive targets for these nomads.  If the Aryans are an indigenous people , why did they  just develop in the northwestern corner  of India alone and not   in other parts of India? Why are the other tribal peoples of India silent in their chronicles of their  presence  in their midst? All these considerations only point to their foreign nature and customs which is quite different from   those indigenous tribes already living in India.  The Aryans most likely came from the Mittani territories which is the general opinion of  experts who reject the possibility that they came from the Indian subcontinent.  Their association with the horse, fire cult and worship, cremation and the worship and resemblances of gods similar to IE and Greek gods points to an outside migration and not an indigenous one. </p>
<p>Time and again the readers and followers of revisionist scholars question the presence of the Aryans in India and seem baffled that a nomadic people as they should produce such a brilliant religious doctrine and language.  This is nothing new since skeptics of all colors are found in all disciplines and studies of history , the arts and other such academic fields.  Well, the Indus people did produce an astonishing civilization far in advance of its time and very modern and exquisitely built in retrospect to its time and people.  The Indus people are Stone Age people using more or less primitive stone tools, and yet they produced  something of value remarkable for such an age traded, maintained it and also produced or invented writing without attending scholastic classes.  Thus, they used their intelligence and wit to match their brilliance, a remarkable achievement for a people still living in the mists of antiquity.  They proved that the Age does not matter but the ability to imagine and to comprehend what to do with the tools at hand and those were very primitive tools so to speak.   </p>
<p>Yet the readers and revisionist followers never seem to question the Indus civilization and its achievements but in most Internet articles and publications , they question the Aryans&#8217; ability to produce such religious hymns and near perfect language. These readers can&#8217;t believe or don&#8217;t want to believe that the Aryans composed and wrote down such beautiful verses for religious purposes in a matter of centuries.  So why can&#8217;t they? The Indus people used their imagination and resources to build a civilization out of the mists of antiquity. Then, why can&#8217;t the Aryans despite being nomads gave India its great religious legacy so too did the Prophet  Mohamed gave Arabia , Islam and they were all nomads on the move.</p>
<p>The Aryans after they entered Afghanistan began to compose the Vedas and from the moment they left Afghanistan , for India they continue to compose the verses of the Vedas. The method they used , they were masters at.  They chanted everything from memory led by the Artharvans, the high priests.  Chanting the Vedas for thousands of years is the method the Rigvedic Aryans used to preserve their legacy. Yes, for those readers who doubt that the Aryans could not have created such beautiful poetry whilst on the move , that is the method they used.  They committed it to memory.  They used their ability and natural human recources even though they were nomads just like the nomads coming out of the sands of Arabia. Those Indian doubters should be aware of this since this legacy were passed down to them from their forefathers.   The rivers they encountered in India from the headwaters of the mountains they named and having known the Sarasvati in Afghanistan , they gave the Sarasvati its name. As the river began to dry up the name remained in the Vedas simply because it was taboo to change the sacred hymns.   And this brings us to the area already dominated by the Aryans. The oldest books of the Vedas which contain the early intrusion of the Aryans contain one natural phenomena which seemed to have bedeviled the Aryans as they struggled to make a living in the Seven Rivers area. And that is the rampaging floods that they wrote so much about India&#8217;s raging rivers pumped up by the Monsoons every year are mentioned by the Aryans.   Here are a few from  Bk 2 alone: </p>
<p>Book  2  Hymn V11   Verse 3       through streaming water floods.</p>
<p>                        X I    Verse 2       floods great and many</p>
<p>                       XII     Verse 12     Seven  great floods to flow at pleasure</p>
<p>                      XIII     Verse 1       rapidly the floods wherein it grows</p>
<p>                      XIII     Verse 12     Turviti heldest still the flowing floods</p>
<p>                     XV     Verse   5       the mighty roaring flood he stayed from flowing</p>
<p>                     XIX     Verse 3        sent forth the flood of waters to the ocean</p>
<p>                     XXI     Verse 5        from him who speeds the flood</p>
<p>                     XXV    Verse 3       He, mighty like a raving billowy flood</p>
<p>                    XXXV   Verse 3       Some floods unite themselves,  On every side the bright<br />
                                                 floods have encompassed</p>
<p>Book 3  Hymn   1    Verse  4       Him , Blessed One, the Seven strong Floods</p>
<p>                      LIII    Verse  9 &#8230; restrained the billowy river etc      </p>
<p>With the above  , one can imagine the conditions and wild landscape , huge raging rivers and deep forested jungle and craggy mountains and fertile plains that the Aryans enountered in the land of the Seven Rivers. The constant stream of overflowing rivers and raging tides and flooding the land must have tested the faith of these people.  The monsoons of India must have created havoc with the beliefs of the Aryans since these heavy downpours flooded the land and the rivers making them deadly, especially the Indus and the Sarasvati.  In parts the Sarasvati must dried up during the years but the monsoons torrential downpours which is phenomenal and extensive surely would have created awe in the world of the Aryans.  The Sarasvati&#8217;s name was transferred to this great river in India for as the people of the Indus disappeared from history, the newly intrusive Aryans must have applied the name to the river.  With the fall and decline of the Indus civilization , the river which probably had a name was unknown to the newly arrived Aryans and so they gave it the name of Sarasvati, which they knew in Afghanistan.    I have read somewhere that revisionist Frawley once said that it was not possible that the Aryans could have brought horse and chariots to the northwest of India. Well, they did and the earliest books from 2&#8211;7 is full of horses and chariots. The northwest of India also contain fertile which would have accommodate horses and chariots and Frawley&#8217;s et al have sought to disinform readers and supporters of the migration theory that the horses and chariots mentioned in the Vedas were symbolic connected with their religion.  How come the Aryans of the Tarim basin used chariots and horses to occupy parts of this area surrounded by rugged mountains and built a civilization?  But that is another matter.  Despite, being troubled by rising flood waters, monsoons, cold weather, the Aryans continue to invoke their most popular god Indra to help them fight off enemies and foul weather. Time and again Indra is called upon to help Aryan prayers to persevere and we divert here for a moment for a chronology of the prehistoric Aryan origin. The ridiculous Frawley et al theory of an indigenous Indus Aryan civilization does not have any foundation whatsoever.  Lets begin with the Vedas and the Avesta.  Vedas means Vedic Hymns so too do the Zend Avesta. which implies or stipulates that the Indo-Aryans and the Iranians were one people living somewhere before in an ancient homeland.   This suggests :</p>
<p>               a)  They are new nomadic tribes to the subcontinent.</p>
<p>               b)  The lifestyles of the Vedas and the Avesta are the same</p>
<p>               c)  They shared the same language, customs, rites, etc.</p>
<p>               d)  They used the same technology such as horses and chariots, which was<br />
                    unknown at that time in the region.</p>
<p>              e)   They worshipped the same gods and both religions were alike in their<br />
                    formative  stages.</p>
<p>              f)   They belong to the same IE family of languages and ethnicity etc.               </p>
<p>              g)  Scanning the pages of the Vedas and Avesta in detail exposes the fact that<br />
                   the people does not have any knowledge of  a vast subcontinent.</p>
<p>              h)  Their immediate geography is limited to certain areas and there is no<br />
                   knowledge of other parts of India in that earliest period.</p>
<p>              i)   The presence of names of areas and rivers in Afghanistan reveals that they<br />
                   knew the geography of the country and is the only other country they knew.</p>
<p>              j)   Whereas, the Indus people knew of other countries such as Sumer,<br />
                  Mesopotamia, Dilmun, Magan, and some Arabian countries.</p>
<p>              k)   There is not mention or knowledge of the above mentioned countries in the<br />
                   Vedas or the Avesta.</p>
<p>              l)   We can compare the invasion of the Aryans like the migratory methods of the<br />
                   Mexicans to the US, the only difference is the Aryans took over India.</p>
<p>              m) The Aryans had to come from somewhere , they just could not have<br />
                  evolved from the vast subcontinent.  There is no evidence to support<br />
                  that, especially in the south, where the population is very much darker<br />
                 than those in the north. It is reasonable that if the Aryans were in India<br />
                 for thousands of years, interbreeding would have produced a uniform<br />
                 white skinned or fair skinned nation. America is only two hundred years<br />
                 old and the Black population is turning white skinned already. With its<br />
                 thousands of years of history, one can imagine India would be like.</p>
<p>             n)   The Aryans who tarried in the north and northwest for thousands of years<br />
                  were a segregated lot and very clannish.  To make it worse their caste<br />
                 system for a while preserved their color.  So we can see that the north<br />
                 bore the brunt of the migration as they assimilated. </p>
<p>            o)  The Androvono, BMAC and other cultures smacks of the strong smell of an Indo-<br />
                Iranian origin with its vast burial and cremation sites of horses, chariots, wheels<br />
                and other practices mentioned in the Vedas. The Dadhanyac horse head legend<br />
                now brought back to life with its discovery on the steppes of Russia.  The burial<br />
                relics associated with this cultures fits nicely with IE customs and rites and<br />
                the migration route from the shores of the Black Sea to the Hindukush to the<br />
                Swat culture and the only mention of a foreign country called Afghanistan. The<br />
                Aryans knew the Kubha river and others. The Swat culture is the most<br />
                likely locus of the earliest IE presence east of the Hindus Kush of the bearers of<br />
                the Rigvedic culture (Wikipedia Page 5 Textual References.Internet Article)</p>
<p>           p)  The Aryans in the Vedas have not mentioned any knowledge of being familiar<br />
                with any people or tribes or their customs to suggest a past habitation.</p>
<p>           q)   As proven outsiders and the clinching evidence that the Aryans were that is the<br />
                evidence portrayed by the Swat Culture. Here there is a major change in the<br />
                Swat Valley with the introduction of new ceramics, burial sites and cremation<br />
                remains in urns which is a custom of the early Vedic people from the Sapta<br />
                Sindhu which is reminiscent of the Trojan cremation urns. IE people are known<br />
                to practice this custom and not people descended from Afro-Austric lineage.<br />
                Then, there are horse burials and trappings.  Do the revisionists accept this?<br />
                Thus, attempts of proponents of continuity  to portray the Rigvedic culture as<br />
                native to the subcontinent, such as identification of horses and chariots in the<br />
                Indus art have little or not acceptance from Indologists.  (Horse and chariot,<br />
                Page 11 Wikipedia.  Internet Article)       </p>
<p>          r)   For those who like to quote the Nadistuti Sukta and its praise of rivers to base<br />
               their argument for an indigenous Aryan civilization, should look again.  The sages<br />
               who compiled this list, suggests that the Aryans only knew these rivers in<br />
               northwest India and Afghanistan. Nothing here suggests a hinterland geographic<br />
               knowledge of the rest of the subcontinent.</p>
<p>The migration into India as shown above is ironclad and I will now go on to change topic and<br />
 make a few comments here on the supposed theory of the Out of India model as presented by Mr. Elst&#8217;s emerging model as presented in Wikipedia page 3. Internet Article.<br />
Mr. Koenraad Elst writes:</p>
<p>              The Out of India theory as suggested by him holds  that the Indo-Iranians  were<br />
              remnants of the Proto-Indo Europeans culture that resided with the Indian<br />
              subcontinent  in the 5th millennium BC.  After the split  of the Proto-Indo-<br />
              Iranians. The Iranians would have migrated towards the Hindu Kush  and<br />
              eventually  towards the Central Asia  making their discovery of the chariot during<br />
              this period.     </p>
<p>I am amused by his speculation which also include a map showing his theory how the<br />
PIE language spread from the Indus Valley outwards from India!  Mr. Elst and his colleagues still believe in an Aryan Indus and and indigenous IE civilization of India and that it spreaded outwards despite the lack of convincing evidence of habitation, custom, rites etc that these people supposed to have left behind in Indian burial sites such as horses, chariots, pottery language etc. Mr. Elst&#8217;s emerging model is weak and has no foundation.  Lets see:</p>
<p>According to Mr. Elst a very highly educated and disciplined person in this craft, believed that the PIE originated in the Indus, that the Aryans left India to discover the chariot in Asia and spread the language in Europe etc. Then, </p>
<p>            a) How can a people of India migrated outside to Asia to discover the chariot,<br />
               when 6,000 years ago the sites of the Russian steppes such as Sintashta and<br />
               Petrovka and Kazakhstan  were already buried in their burnt graves?</p>
<p>            b) If and when they got back to India why are there no evidence of horse burials<br />
               or evidence of of chariot usage in India before the advent of the Aryans?</p>
<p>           c)  Why did they not have evidence of the use of the horse and chariot in the<br />
                Indus which is a complete blank in its archaeological sites. Did they come<br />
               to India and used the horse and chariot excluding the Indus?</p>
<p>           d)  How can PIE originate from the Indus civilization when the seals and script<br />
                does not represent a spoken language per se?</p>
<p>           e)  New analysis of material from the graves from this area shows that these<br />
                chariots were built more than 4000 years ago , strengthening  their case<br />
               for their origin  in the steppes rather than the Middle East. ( Remaking the<br />
               Wheel-Evolution of the Chariot.   Science Times Book of Archaeology.  NY<br />
               Edited by Nicholas Wade  1999. by John Noble Wilford 1994) </p>
<p>Poor Mr. Elst et al , they cannot seem to account properly for the absence of the horse<br />
and chariot at the Indus, hence an OIT.  This subject of the horse and chariot has thrown<br />
their axis out of tilt and they can&#8217;t seem to get it straight.<br />
                                                                                                                                     I&#8217;d like to make a point on the subject of horses to those who believe that the Indus was a center for horse breeding from the inception of the Indus civilization circa 3500BC.   Indian historians and some archaeologists have written a host of articles of horses at the Indus and reported findings of bones and remains.   Also, we hear how the Indus empire was far flung in its trading with other nations such as Sumer, Mesopotamia and Arab lands.  We read of the vast trading commerce of the Indus people with their sailing ships and we read of the products they traded with other people.  Also , most of the Indian writers and historians state how vast deposits of horse bones are found in most Indus cities. If all this is true , then why in the trading documents are there no mention of horse trading of Indus ships with the other nations?  Where are the detailed descriptions of the color of the horse, the breed of the horse etc in the trading lists of the Indus traders?  Where are the parts of the chariots that was traded from the Indus to other cities and civilizations?   Why are there no details of horse trading from the other lands , especially from the Arabs?   How is it that the Indus ALONE possessed the horse from 3500BC, and no other civilization or city has no textual evidence of its presence within that time?    The Indus was indeed overflowing with bones, asses and onagers.   The Indus civilization drew on an inexhausted supply of asses and onagers from the Rann Of Kutch where the ass is known as khurs.   This is where the Indus people derived the source of their transport , because the Rann OF Kutch was overflowing with asses and onagers and they were used for transport, pack animals, dray carts along with the oxen and bulls.   Even today the area still depends on the Rann Of Kutch for its pack animals.   So the Indian historians and archaeologists should stop looking in every nook and cranny of the Indus for horses.  They didn&#8217;t exist.  If any Indian archaeologist or historian could find any textual evidence that the Indus traded in horses with their neighbors , I&#8217;d recommend him for a Nobel Peace Prize.   Indian scholars and historians who fervently believe in an Aryan Indus love to include in their books and pieces supposed evidence of horse bones, remains and fauna in the cities and sites of the ancient Indus.   But none so far can prove that evidence exists that the Indus possessed this technology and as I have said above that if the Indus people knew this animal , they would have left evidence of horse trading in those ancient times.  It is amazing that several historians and scholars give glowing accounts of reasons why the Indus is of Aryan origin but omits the main animal&#8211; the horse and worse yet go into detail about Indus trade and yet cannot produce attestation of horse trading.   Every conceivable item, article and artifact is detailed for the trade industry for the Indus but the trade in horses is missing. Dr. Subhash Kak, a devotee of Aryan Indus in his article:  &#8220;Vedic Elements In the Ancient Iranian Religion of Zarathushtra&#8221; ( Pages 51-56) makes a comparison of the two religions but ominiously leaves out the horse and chariot  but includes the cow.  This is cynical of the writings of historical revisionists who write and publish articles as the true history of India arguing for an Aryan Indus but omits the horse and chariot.  This kind of argument never clinches their theories.  Or if they do mention the horse and chariot, they rely on the false layer of deposits of ass bones found in the Indus as evidence of the animal&#8217;s existence.    A horse rich  Aryan Indus existing from 3500BC should leave us and archaeologists a vast amount of remains of a horse culture, a culture of attestation which should exhibit the training  and breeding of horses, textual evidence of horse management, use of the horse as a mode of transport or for martial purposes and written documents of horse trade with the surrounding empires.  None of this is available in the ruins of the Indus and while the Aryans and Trojans are superb examples of horse breeding, of which the evidence attests to this, the Indus are not known to have seen a horse and therefore are not horse breeders.  There is no pictorial evidence of interaction or integration of the horse and chariot in the evidence produced so far in the Indus.  There are no seals or scripts attesting to people of the Indus driving chariots pulled by horses as we have seen in other societies.  If any animals were used in the Indus civilization , they were amply supplied by the limitless herds of asses and onagers roaming the Rann Of Kutch, known as khurs.   As G.L  Possehl the archaeologist said,     </p>
<p>               &#8220;As far as I can tell, there are lots of asses documented at the Indus<br />
              settlements , but not domestic horses.&#8221;</p>
<p>Who else can be more right?  All this has been confirmed by Meadow and Kenoyer the two leading archaeologists in the Indus excavations and most times they are irritated by the revisionist scholars whose enthusiasm carries they them away.  This is what the various Hindunet articles are trying to suggest that the donkey carts of the Indus is a point of origin for the development of lightly rolling war chariots of the Vedas.   They are employing  lexemes, morphemes,  phonemes and various other  subtle ingenuous and insidious word building  in these articles in order to fit the Aryans war machine for an Aryan Indus society when the archaeological evidence does not produce such a picture.   Other internet articles state that:</p>
<p>              Carts were  pulled by oxen and asses in Sumeria between 3000 and 2750 BC<br />
              By the time of the Copper Age , 3000BC solid wheels and axles were used.<br />
              There are records of two four wheeled carts pulled by oxen and asses in<br />
              Sumeria and Mesopotamia between the above date.  Also many model carts<br />
              have been dug up.   (www. Techitouk.com)</p>
<p>              The King of  Sumer rides out in cart pulled by 4 donkeys for war.<br />
              (www.answerbag.com)   </p>
<p>If the reader notices , these are the same time period which so called horse bones are found in the Indus and this brings up the following questions , which I am sure no historian or scholar of a revisionist nature will attempt to answer.</p>
<p>            a) If there was an Aryan indigenous civilization with the above dates, where are the<br />
                cremation sites or urns from this time period? The Trojan civilization produced<br />
                cremation sites and urns from this early period.</p>
<p>           b) Why is there no evidence of a deep and vast horse culture in the Indus?  </p>
<p>           c) Why are there no remains of sacrifice and buried chariots which is the custom of<br />
               Aryan people?  </p>
<p>          d) If the Aryans were indigenous to India why is there an absence of such<br />
             documentation in the texts and chronicles of other neighboring clans and tribes?</p>
<p>          e)  Why is there only mention of cremation in the Vedas and not in other<br />
             chronicles?</p>
<p>           f)  Why is there only mention of horse sacrifice only in the Vedas and not in other<br />
               chronicles of the other people?</p>
<p>          g) Most important of all, how can the Indus possess horses in a vaccum at a time<br />
             when other empires did not have them?  Did the Indus alone have them?  If so<br />
             why are there no evidence of trade?   </p>
<p>        h)  The Indus as a civilization has failed to demonstrate or illustrate its familiarity with<br />
             horses in a two fold manner:</p>
<p>                 The absence of interaction and integration of its people, history and<br />
                 archaeological remains with the horse and chariot.<br />
                 There is no pictorial or illustrative carvings, engravings or writings that allude to it<br />
                 familiarity of the horse with its people. eg. there is no pictures of people<br />
                 together with horses and chariots, no writings or  seals that reveal the<br />
                 breedings, categories or worshipful reverence of the horse or allusions to rich<br />
                 people owning horses or horses used as transport in the cities.</p>
<p>                 Secondly, the Indus civilization as a cluster for habitation for survival has no<br />
                 evidence that the horse existed as an integrative icon in its religion, culture ,<br />
                 lifestyle or as a tool for transport or for martial purposes.  Its absence as an<br />
                 integrative icon or symbol in the society of the Indus is complete.  Historians<br />
                 and archaeologists as AK . Sharma and Bonkoyi  are dead wrong.  They cannot<br />
                 prove that the horse was used for trading nor can anyone else connected with<br />
                 the Indus.  The Indus has no evidence of trading in horses and thus its<br />
                 integrative absence is true.  Also, had the horse existed in the Indus , its rulers<br />
                 would have certainly traded its value, used it for personal and martial purposes<br />
                 etc. I challenge anyone to provide evidence that the Indus traded horses with its<br />
                 neighbors between 3500BC-2500BC when supposedly horse bones and<br />
                 remains were found in its soils of its cities.</p>
<p>I once posed this question to Mr. Elst about the question of evidence of horse trade from the Indus with their neighbors.  His answer was not satisfactory nor was his attitude conducive to me in his reply.   The trading of horses as an industry or occupation in the Indus is non-existent and revisionist writers bask in the glory of the greatness of the Indus in their trading relations with their neighbors. Dozens of books , articles and publications are devoted to the huge trading industry of the Indus with the distant empires and cities in faraway lands. We also read about the Indus people , especially sailors and merchants and traders lived in Sumer, Mesopotamia and other foreign lands and carried on trade with their counterparts. This is the time period that  where most revisionist theories date the supposedly Aryan Indus from 3500BC to 2700BC in which horse remains and bones are plentiful in the Indus cities from Ropar in the north to Surkotada down south.and even further.    Then there is the familiar terracota finds of horse figurines and such things that some archaeologists and historians label as true findings of the existence of the horse at the Indus.  Mr. Elst&#8217;s long list of horse bones and remains is grand and convincing if one does not delve further into the history of the Indus.    Here is a piece from the Internet dated July 9 2003. titled </p>
<p>                              Trade and Economics of the Indus:  The Harappan Tradition.</p>
<p>         A complex system  of trade networks made the Harappans  rich and guaranteed<br />
        access to exotic goods.  Internal networks moved every imaginable  good throughout<br />
        the Civilization.  Shell, dried fish, and pearls from the coast; copper, tin, chert,<br />
        precious metals and semiprecious  stone from the hill country,  and grain, animals,<br />
        and  wood from the rural areas flowed from one area to another, resulting  in a<br />
        nearly  homogenous distribution of goods across the face of the civilization irrespective<br />
        of origin. Networks  extended into  Central Asia, Mesopotamia, and the Arabian<br />
        Peninsula.   These networks exported  every good  and luxury available in the<br />
        Harappan  Civilization.  It is unclear  what was being  imported, but it is likely to be<br />
        wool , fish and grain.</p>
<p>                                               Subsistence and  Trade</p>
<p>        Subsistence and trade settlements  lay on the flood plains of the Indus and Gha<br />
        riverss, where fertile land was annually refreshed by innundation.  Recent research<br />
        has shown wheat, barley, pulses, millets, fibers/ oilseed, melons ,coucumbers,<br />
        squashes , and water buffalo, goat and sheep provided animal products.Floodplains<br />
        lack raw materials, urban economies provided surplus for exchange to oil. Kenoyer<br />
        proposed  a series of trade or resource routes linking  the urbanized centers with<br />
        areas of lapis lazulli,  carnelian, steatite, shells, chert, tin, copper and gold.  These<br />
        materials  processed were redistributed within the Indus region and the surplus was<br />
        traded to the Persian Gulf states as far as Elam and Mesopotamia.<br />
        (Welcome to the Human Past Page 5&amp;6 Internet Article 12/14/06) </p>
<p>  I will now continue with the Indus and its trading partners from the Internet article which is quite a thick document and has the following headlines.  Of course, I am only extending the discoveries of the trade of the Indus and the neighboring cites and empires. I am doing this to point out a few instances where trade is claimed by the authors of this document dated  12/5/06 and has three separate titles.  This will show precisely what was traded for the three different regions. viz:    </p>
<p>                   Central Asia, Mesopotamia and Sarasvati Sindhu civilization</p>
<p>                   Sarasvati Sindhu civilization is one tip of the triangle linking<br />
                   with the Central Asian and Mesopotamian cultural areas.</p>
<p>                  Bactrian - Margian - Archaeological - Complex   BMAC</p>
<p>   From Bactria peculiarly the article does not say that trade was done with the Indus and the author assumed  that,</p>
<p>  &#8221; there is every ground to assume the dissemination from it of metal-works (celts, daggers,<br />
    pins)  and specific forms of earthenware (stemmed vases, saucers etc) in the eastern<br />
   direction down to the valley of the Indus, by way of exchange, trade and cultural<br />
    contacts.  This period embraces the existence of the Harappan civilization and does<br />
    not presuppose  the arrival of new tribes.  This is strikingly proved by the Harappa<br />
    culture itself, which demonstrates a continuous line of development  without any<br />
    invasions from outside. We shall merely remark that southwestern Iran and possibly<br />
    Caucasus emerge as a zpne where numerous metal articles come to be produced(mid<br />
    2nd millennium BC)  while Iranian Khorassan is doubtlessly the main venue for  their<br />
    penetration  into the southern areas of central Asia, Bactria  and possibly  the valley of<br />
    the Indus.<br />
(Viktor I. Sarianidi, 1979, New Finds in Bactria and Indo-Iranian Connections, pp 643-659,    South Asian Archaeology 1977, Naples)          </p>
<p>      The above information as I said looks peculiar to me.  Here we have an assume trading of goods between  BMAC region, Iran, and the Caucasus in the 2nd Millennium and only the mention of metal articles are noted for trade.  This region is famous for horses because this is where the Aryans came down from the Black Sea area             </p>
<p>                         The Horse  in Sarasvati  Sindhu  Civilization</p>
<p>   States  dating Tepe Hissar IIIB  a little before  2000 BC &#8230; skull of horse found and<br />
   furthermore the horse is alleged to have been  domesticated at Sha Tepe much<br />
   earlier still thus anticipating it appearance at Boghazkoy in Central Asia Minor in the<br />
   Hittite period&#8230;..   </p>
<p>What does this tell you?  The theme running through this paragraph is that the skull is  found at Hissar IIIB  and domesticated at Shah Tepe says just that and nothing else. It does not say anything about the Indus.  It does not connect the Indus with ShahTepe nor does it say that the horse was known at the Indus.  The next few paragraphs from:                             </p>
<p>             AK  Sharma,  The  Harappan horse was buried under the  dunes of  &#8230; in<br />
             Puratattva&#8230;..In the Harrapan levels  over here  have been found clearly<br />
             identifiable terracota figurines  of this animal.                                                                             </p>
<p>             (Pages 3,4,5 and 6.Mackay FEM , MEL Mellowan 1965 Early Mesopotamian and<br />
              Iran,  London Thames and Hudson p. 123             </p>
<p>             Vol 1, page 289,  Ak Sharma, Bulletin of the Indian Archaeological Society No 23,<br />
             1992-93  pp. 30-34, Mackay  FEM Vol 1  p 289  Wheeler  Indus Civilization 1968<br />
             p. 92  Cambridge. Prof. S Bokonyl, Director Archaeological  Institute Budapest  13<br />
              Dec 1993 ,  Dr Joshi,. Archaeological Survey of India,  S. Rao, and B Nauth of<br />
             the  Zoological Survey of India 1985 p. 641,    Lal, 1998  p. 112 ,   Gupta 1979,<br />
             Vol. 2   </p>
<p>The professional names quoted above have put their signature and approval to the supposed horse finds at Surkotada, Mohenjodaro,  Kolidhwa,  Mahagara,  Kachchha, northern<br />
Baluchistan, Lothal,  Nausharo,  and other areas.   The carbon dating for these finds are from 3500 BC to 2315 BC and further down.  Finds include supposedly, teeth, bones of true horse,  terracota figurines, upper and  lower   cheek,  incisors and phalanges or to bones, intermaxilla  fragment , crib biting, faunal remains, cheek teeth, spur or protocone and upper molars of these supposed horses.   What a find!  Now, let us for argument sake say that all these finds are true, then we can come to only one conclusion and that is the following:</p>
<p>                 a)  Why aren&#8217;t there evidence of  horse trade with the neighbors ot the Indus?</p>
<p>                 b)  The bloody place seemed to be overrunning with horses and yet we can&#8217;t<br />
                      find one engraving or etching on the seals and script. Why?</p>
<p>                 c)  How come the Indus have so many horses and her neighbors don&#8217;t have no<br />
                      evidence of trading in horses, no documentation to attest to this activity with<br />
                      the Indus.<br />
                 d)  Horse tra